Why do we even celebrate Columbus Day?

  • @pingveno@lemmy.ml
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    51 year ago

    If you want an actual answer, he was selected to give Italian-Americans something to celebrate. I guess they were a little less uptight about a little light genocide back then. Now of course we are giving a well deserved second look at his reputation.

  • Persona
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    1 year ago

    This guy I think does a really great balanced overview of how some of the accusations against Columbus are exaggerated

    The important thing to keep in mind is that we like to think in the same shoes we would be better. But much of what he did would have happened anyways eventually.

    He was an imperfect product of his time but I don’t see most of these evil things directly from him.

    From his own mouth he thought the natives could be turned into Christians and made to be subjects like any other subject of the crown.

    He called them intelligent and able to learn other languages.

    To me this means he saw them at-least at the same level as the peasants of Europe and not like animals.

    • SteveOP
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      71 year ago

      I don’t agree with this at all based entirely on history. Facts aren’t exaggerations. He was awful even based on the standards of his day. The recent series on Behind The Bastards makes this doubly clear while taking this into account. You don’t rape, mutilate and enslave those you see as humans unless you are a sadist.

      • Persona
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        21 year ago

        Facts aren’t exaggerations.

        You don’t think translations can be exaggerated?

        He was awful even based on the standards of his day.

        He discovered a whole new continent and lived to tell about it. He was first to join two worlds permanently. Awful is pretty subjective here. He was well educated, well traveled, spoke well of the natives. I’m not sure what you mean by awful.

        You don’t rape, mutilate and enslave those you see as humans unless you are a sadist.

        I don’t see anywhere that he actually raped anyone. He certainly never wrote about it. I see some accusations but those could well be exaggerated by people who don’t like him. For example, I could write on here some accusation about you that wasn’t true. Maybe historians would see it as true 200 years from now.

        As someone wrote in the comments of the video I posted,

        If we can pin 400 years of awful history onto one guy, it shifts all of the guilt for what happened to the native americans away from the rest of us.

        He was the first to start a era of peoples crossing the atlantic but was by no means the person who did all the terrible things to the native Americans.

        At the end of the day he changed the world at a scale most of us could never hope to and he is worth thought and consideration to learn from. Even if it’s what not to do.

        I’m kinda on team columbus day. But I understand why some would rather celebrate it as indigenous day.

        • Gaywallet (they/it)
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          1 year ago

          I don’t see anywhere that he actually raped anyone. He certainly never wrote about it. I see some accusations but those could well be exaggerated by people who don’t like him.

          The very first item in the article linked above is from a crew member about how he was awarded a human being who was enslaved by Columbus, are you implying that this crew member did not like Columbus and exaggerated their reporting of events which happened to them to make Columbus look bad? That seems like a pretty extreme stretch to me.

          He was the first to start a era of peoples crossing the atlantic but was by no means the person who did all the terrible things to the native Americans.

          Calling out bad behavior (bad is taking it extremely lightly, this person is directly responsible for an extreme amount of harm to many people) in one individual is not conflating all harm to them, it’s calling out how one person contributed. At what point did anyone attempt to excuse the bad behavior of others because one person is calling out the atrocities Columbus conducted?

          Also, do not post images which are meant to be inflammatory or disrespectful of others.

          • Persona
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            21 year ago

            I aplogize if the image was inflammatory to you. I meant it to be more thought provoking.

            The very first item in the article linked above is from a crew member about how he was awarded a human being who was enslaved by Columbus, are you implying that this crew member did not like Columbus and exaggerated their reporting of events which happened to them to make Columbus look bad? That seems like a pretty extreme stretch to me.

            I am implying that the account you are referring to is second hand account (a supposed friend), and a translation who’s accuracy isn’t likely perfect, and it was probably not even written by the friend himself but someone copying it later on. And I see nothing written by Columbus himself that he would do such things.

            I am not saying He was perfect. He like all of us did both good and bad things.

            His goal was subjection as in conquest. This wasn’t motivated by race.

            He actually cut off spanish noses and hands for raping and being violent to native women. I encourage you to watch the video I posted.

            Napolean killed hundreds of thousands in Europe as he was attempting conquest. No one calls that genocide.

            He wasn’t a good guy but if it wasn’t him it was someone else. I think it’s good to learn about him.

            • Gaywallet (they/it)
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              1 year ago

              He like all of us did both good and bad things.

              I’m not claiming to be a saint, but I think it’s unfair to compare what happened under this person’s watch and what they were directly responsible for to the harm I’ve inflicted on others in this world. I would never rape or murder anyone, and I doubt being born hundreds of years earlier would change that perspective. I obviously cannot say for certain, but the fact that we have countless historical figures which we revere for their compassion and morality indicates to me that the typical argument of “it was a different time” really only excuses so much behavior.

              He wasn’t a good guy but if it wasn’t him it was someone else.

              And I see no reason why we can’t chastise anyone who commits atrocities - it’s not about whether it would have been someone else, it’s about appropriately framing what happened. Historically speaking, colonialism painted this figure in a way that very much downplayed the harm he caused. The reason people get upset about him and why the holiday was renamed is precisely to help counter this hundreds of years old inaccurate narrative.

              Napolean killed hundreds of thousands in Europe as he was attempting conquest. No one calls that genocide.

              Googling the term “Napolean genocide” returns 1.9m results. There’s more than a few people calling it genocide.

              I think it’s good to learn about him.

              I completely agree. We should learn everything about him and not try to downplay the accounts that we do have of his behavior and his accords. If we’re willing to accept ‘second hand accounts’ about what he accomplished, we should also be willing to accept second hand accounts about the harm he caused as well.

              • Persona
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                21 year ago

                I’m not claiming to be a saint, but I think it’s unfair to compare what happened under this person’s watch and what they were directly responsible for to the harm I’ve inflicted on others in this world. I would never rape or murder anyone, and I doubt being born hundreds of years earlier would change that perspective.

                He himself did not rape anyone. Murder also has a specific definition. Under his rule people were put to death (both the spanish and the natives) for breaking laws the rulers enacted. So you could make the argument it wasn’t murder. We don’t call people who die under the death penalty murder. (some might but it’s generally understood to be something different) It’s also not fair to them that you think you could have done better having not lived in such a time. You don’t know that you could have. You don’t have as much responsibility as he does. Multiple times he chastised his men for being violent. We can see from the historical record he had the capacity for both good and evil.

                I feel like I want to bring up a few more historical figures here to bring perspective.

                George Washington the founding leader of the united states had slaves. Multiple roads, states and more are named after him. He did some great and amazing things. He also had slaves, literal slaves. He could have freed them at anytime.

                Lets not forget he had slaves, but also not forget all the good things he did and even he started to recognize slavery was evil.

                And I see no reason why we can’t chastise anyone who commits atrocities - it’s not about whether it would have been someone else, it’s about appropriately framing what happened. Historically speaking, colonialism painted this figure in a way that very much downplayed the harm he caused.

                Agreed but the reverse has been true. As the video I posted pointed out, many people are outright lying and misrepresenting what he said and did. We need push back on the otherside to make sure we are getting the whole accurate picture.

                The reason people get upset about him and why the holiday was renamed is precisely to help counter this hundreds of years old inaccurate narrative.

                The holiday is still Columbus day in most places. Some places instead celebrate indigenous but it has not been officially country wide renamed.

                If we’re willing to accept ‘second hand accounts’ about what he accomplished, we should also be willing to accept second hand accounts about the harm he caused as well.

                Accept nothing, ask for proof of everything. You can never assume there is no agenda or bias against the article, person, or entity.

                Every line of history is up for debate always and forever. We thought he was the first European until Leaf Erickson’s camp was discovered.

                We should be discussing the actual In language writings, who wrote them, what their various translations mean instead of opinion articles and youtube videos. Even if they are both good places to start.

                Cheers