people have been demonizing it for most of the AD years i think but it’s quite pleasant really. are there any proven negative effects?

    • Archelon@lemmy.world
      16·
      17 days ago

      See, that’s really interesting to me! The mainstream feminist spaces I’ve interacted with have been very sex-positive, so I’m curious how you’ve experienced this demonization.

    • underisk@lemmy.ml
      71·
      17 days ago

      That’s not an explanation you just restated the claim they asked you to elaborate on. What have you encountered that led you to this conclusion?

      • SeattleRain@lemmy.worldEnglish
        17·
        17 days ago

        Yes it is, masturbation is a part of male sexuality. If you demonize male sexuality any endorsement of male sexual expression is an explicit endorsement of the harmful male sexuality.

          • SeattleRain@lemmy.worldEnglish
            17·
            17 days ago

            Feminists posit that men are inherently predatory. See “toxic masculinity” debates. Influential feminists like Dworkin have even stated that any sexual intercourse with men is sexual assault.

            Mainstream media, which is deeply influenced by feminism, depicts male sexuality as dangerous “any man can be a rapist” while lying by omission about female predators.

            Being male is an inalienable trait and “toxic masculinity” inherently is borne from males. Things like sexual assault are “women’s issues” even though studies show men are assault at near parity to women.

            The list goes on, really shouldn’t have spent so much time answering because it’s so glaringly obvious so you’re arguing in bad faith.

            • underisk@lemmy.ml
              9·
              17 days ago

              You’re making a lot of claims about things I don’t think you really have a grasp on. “Toxic masculinity” is not an implication that all men are inherently toxic. It’s a criticism of societal expectations for men that harm them and their relationships.

              You’re saying that feminism has seriously hindered acceptance of male masturbation but all you’ve provided here is vague unsubstantiated implications of media bias and a single author’s name. I’m not going to read the entire collected works of whoever Dworkin is to figure out why you think they’re both representative of the entire feminist movement and also hate men wanking it. Give me something tangible here. A quote, a law they supported, a speech, a video, literally anything at all that isn’t just some insinuation that’s only attributable to yourself

              I would consider myself a male feminist and I masturbate daily so if the movement thinks that’s wrong I’d like to know so I can stop describing myself as feminist.

              • sushibowl@feddit.nl
                61·
                17 days ago

                Andrea Dworkin was an influential feminist mainly in the '80 and '90. She was pretty clearly anti pornography, at least as it existed in her time (she died in 2005. Who knows what she might think of some of the stuff out there today). She’s also one of the most frequently misquoted feminists of all time, particularly by anti-feminists. she did not say all heterosexual intercourse was rape:

                Several reviewers accused you of saying that all intercourse was rape. I haven’t found a hint of that anywhere in the book. Is that what you are saying?

                Andrea Dworkin: No, I wasn’t saying that and I didn’t say that, then or ever. There is a long section in Right-Wing Women on intercourse in marriage. My point was that as long as the law allows statutory exemption for a husband from rape charges, no married woman has legal protection from rape. I also argued, based on a reading of our laws, that marriage mandated intercourse—it was compulsory, part of the marriage contract. Under the circumstances, I said, it was impossible to view sexual intercourse in marriage as the free act of a free woman. I said that when we look at sexual liberation and the law, we need to look not only at which sexual acts are forbidden, but which are compelled.

                The whole issue of intercourse as this culture’s penultimate expression of male dominance became more and more interesting to me. In Intercourse I decided to approach the subject as a social practice, material reality. This may be my history, but I think the social explanation of the “all sex is rape” slander is different and probably simple. Most men and a good number of women experience sexual pleasure in inequality. Since the paradigm for sex has been one of conquest, possession, and violation, I think many men believe they need an unfair advantage, which at its extreme would be called rape. I don’t think they need it. I think both intercourse and sexual pleasure can and will survive equality.

                It’s important to say, too, that the pornographers, especially Playboy, have published the “all sex is rape” slander repeatedly over the years, and it’s been taken up by others like Time who, when challenged, cannot cite a source in my work.

              • SeattleRain@lemmy.worldEnglish
                16·
                17 days ago

                I do understand “Toxic Masculinity”. It’s right in the word and is much like how conservatives would blame " black culture" for the societal ills of African Americans.

                You simply denying that that’s not what it is doesn’t debunk anything.

                And we have a term for societal expectations already and it’s called gender roles. Which isn’t a loaded admonishment like toxic masculinity.

                All of feminism revolves around the critique of men which is an inalienable trait.

                • underisk@lemmy.ml
                  3·
                  17 days ago

                  Specific aspects of gender roles are what toxic masculinity criticizes, you’re trying to substitute a general term for a more specific one. Toxic masculinity specifically refers to the ones that are toxic, not the fact that men have gender roles at all. It’s, like you said, right there in the name.

              • SeattleRain@lemmy.worldEnglish
                16·
                17 days ago

                I already cited several scenes from the Barbie movie in this thread which was celebrated as a feminist watershed.

                The Duluth Model of determining domestic violence another example. Child support is another. The banning of paternity testing is yet another. You’re just being obtuse. I won’t engage with you anymore.

                • underisk@lemmy.ml
                  4·
                  17 days ago

                  My dude, scenes from a Barbie movie are not representative of an entire political movement and I really don’t think your interpretation of those scenes makes for any kind of proof of your claims.

                  Do you have anything demonstrating the feminist movement supports this shit:

                  The Duluth Model of determining domestic violence another example. Child support is another. The banning of paternity testing is yet another

                  Or are you just labeling these things as feminist because you do that with everything you perceive as misandrist?

    • gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de
      4·
      17 days ago

      Not really.

      Feminism embraces openness in society, including walking your own path.

      If that includes deviating from cis male sexuality, then yes, feminism does indeed allow that to happen, if it happens naturally. In other words: feminism does not force you to take part in the toxic masculinity circlejerk.

      In that way, yes, feminism probably reduces the amount of “male sexuality” which is basically toxic masculinity in the world. But it does not force that change, instead, it lets it happen.

    • hungryphrog@lemmy.blahaj.zone
      2·
      17 days ago

      My ass. Yes, maybe some inviduals do, but feminism itself does not. Feminists only ‘demonize’ male sexuality when it starts turning into treating us as walking fleshlights.