That’s a common misconception actually, any and all data available via federation is already public and easily scrapable even without running an instance of one’s own. Defederating only hides (in this case) Threads content from users on the instance doing the defederating, but the data is still public. Not to mention copies of it would still be fully available on any extant federated instances.
But they would still be unable to embrace (and, by extension, extend and extinguish) because users from Threads would be unable to interact with users from other instances. Basically, they’d be unable to get rid of a potential competitor using the EEE method.
But how could interoperability lead to extinguishing? That’s the part I don’t understand. By what means could Threads “extinguish” the network of instances that stay federated?
It seems the idea is that it gets so big that it either can’t exist without it or leeches the userbase. I’ve not really seen any explanation either, but I’ve come up with an idea around it. For example, in my experience Lemmy.World is filled with the type of people who would use Threads (from responses I’ve gotten about corporations like Spotify and Apple - heavily praised and no negativity about them). As threads and .world users interact, over time there becomes a dependency between those instances due to the community connections that are made. At a certain point, one or the other does something to encourage usage - that would be Extending.
For how long would something like activitypub be able to hold out? If Meta begins making contributions to it? Or if after that dependency, Meta makes a chance to how their federation works internally and fractures the point of activitypub by making instance runners/users pick one or the other. Or worse, Meta flat out buys Automatic. There goes the Fediverse.
FWIW - I’m not informed or have any idea what I’m talking about in this regard. I’m fully guessing and postulating, I don’t even think I’m parroting what I’ve read somebody else say about it because, like I said, I’ve yet to see an explanation how the extinguish would function in this example. Historically I have an idea, but the circumstances here are different, ish.
But, this is Meta we’re talking about. I don’t think we’d be any happier federating with Reddit if the opportunity arose because these companies have historically shown they will pull teeth to get what they want, no matter how many people’s teeth they have to pull.
“Well can they?”
I don’t know. Maybe not? Do you want to let them try? Why let them? By defederating, it’s like having a glass wall where yes, they can see everything looking in, but the interaction is mitigated. Ifnthe example I brought up is accurate, any changes .World decided to make with Meta in mind would not affect the rest of the instances that have defederated, since we don’t even see that stuff from them in the first place.
Comparatively, slrpnk.net currently is federated with .World but not Threads, so if .World makes changes, those may be seen from instances that are federated with it?
From my understanding, a specific post on .World that has interaction from Threads and slrpnk.net. Threads and .World would see everything while Slrpnk.Net would only see federated instances and .World comments.
We are about 1.5m here in the Fediverse. Threads is already 100m. That’s quite a large number of things to be missing, so it’s possible that there’s a large number of conversations that defederated users are only seeing half of? That could be another example that pushes Extinguish.
Anyway, sorry for any confusion or nonsense - I wrote this in a hurry on my phone, but I also wanted to lay out my thoughts and understand to see if it’s at all in the ballpark. Shit, just use me as Cunningham’s Law.
You’ve basically got it. To use the “Google XMPP” example some others have:
XMPP users existed, and its userbase was growing (similar to Lemmy). Google made Google Talk, a desktop chat application they used to have, compatible with XMPP (which was the “ActivityPub” of chat applications) (embrace).
After a bit, Google started adding their own proprietary stuff to XMPP. (It’s similar to how Apple/ Google added proprietary stuff in their respective text message applications, like reacting to a text with an emote.) The XMPP devs, for whatever reason, couldn’t or didn’t make Google’s own proprietary Google Talk features compatible with XMPP, so XMPP users might’ve started feeling left out (extend).
After a while, Google Talk got rid of its XMPP support, and, as a result, many XMPP users could no longer communicate with many of the friends they had made on the platform. (Since Google Talk users outnumbered XMPP users, there was a very high chance that people you communicated with on there were using Google Talk.) Google Talk users, on the other hand, simply noticed maybe one or two people on their list had gone offline permanently (extinguish).
Yeah this is the one, and it seems easy to see exactly that process taking place. I don’t think it’s so much the data concerns, alone at least, nor even the potential for content. I think many would agree that, to some extent having a larger user base available could be a good thing. It just so happens that 1) the user base is “more accessible” at best and potentially dangerous at its worst (not all of threads is friendly) and 2) it’s Meta. There couldn’t possibly be a reason for them to pursue this other than not having their grasp on it. I see no reason to trust it.
Someone you like on Threads and nowhere else. Use it there then. You can view them if it’s federated? Will that still be the case in 1, 2, 3 years? At which point you’ve integrated so much of your instance into Threads that when support for ActivityPub is dropped or whatever change gets made, well, you may as well stick with Threads…
There’s just no good outcome. I am an optimist, for the right perspective and reason devil’s advocate is always worth a glance… and this? This has no good causes behind it. Man, what is it with all the big corps and apps trying to tie everything into one single spot like WeChat. Can’t people just scroll Mastodon then X then Threads then Lemmy then Kbin then Facebook all separately like a normal mass consumer?
I actually don’t have a problem tying everything together. I think the fact that Mastodon and Lemmy can communicate with each other (even though it’s not really intentionally designed that way) is pretty neat.
What I do have a problem with is the corporations that are trying to do it. I don’t trust any corporation to do it responsibly, especially not Facebook.
I would love to federate with Reddit. I hate having a Reddit account. I hate their website layout and apps. I hate their ads. If I could access some of the niche reddit communities that aren’t on Lemmy without using Reddit that seems to have absolutely no downside.
But how would defederating prevent any of that?
It would make Threads unable to see content from instances defederating it and vice versa, preventing the Embrace step.
That’s a common misconception actually, any and all data available via federation is already public and easily scrapable even without running an instance of one’s own. Defederating only hides (in this case) Threads content from users on the instance doing the defederating, but the data is still public. Not to mention copies of it would still be fully available on any extant federated instances.
But they would still be unable to embrace (and, by extension, extend and extinguish) because users from Threads would be unable to interact with users from other instances. Basically, they’d be unable to get rid of a potential competitor using the EEE method.
But how could interoperability lead to extinguishing? That’s the part I don’t understand. By what means could Threads “extinguish” the network of instances that stay federated?
It seems the idea is that it gets so big that it either can’t exist without it or leeches the userbase. I’ve not really seen any explanation either, but I’ve come up with an idea around it. For example, in my experience Lemmy.World is filled with the type of people who would use Threads (from responses I’ve gotten about corporations like Spotify and Apple - heavily praised and no negativity about them). As threads and .world users interact, over time there becomes a dependency between those instances due to the community connections that are made. At a certain point, one or the other does something to encourage usage - that would be Extending.
For how long would something like activitypub be able to hold out? If Meta begins making contributions to it? Or if after that dependency, Meta makes a chance to how their federation works internally and fractures the point of activitypub by making instance runners/users pick one or the other. Or worse, Meta flat out buys Automatic. There goes the Fediverse.
FWIW - I’m not informed or have any idea what I’m talking about in this regard. I’m fully guessing and postulating, I don’t even think I’m parroting what I’ve read somebody else say about it because, like I said, I’ve yet to see an explanation how the extinguish would function in this example. Historically I have an idea, but the circumstances here are different, ish.
But, this is Meta we’re talking about. I don’t think we’d be any happier federating with Reddit if the opportunity arose because these companies have historically shown they will pull teeth to get what they want, no matter how many people’s teeth they have to pull.
“Well can they?”
I don’t know. Maybe not? Do you want to let them try? Why let them? By defederating, it’s like having a glass wall where yes, they can see everything looking in, but the interaction is mitigated. Ifnthe example I brought up is accurate, any changes .World decided to make with Meta in mind would not affect the rest of the instances that have defederated, since we don’t even see that stuff from them in the first place.
Comparatively, slrpnk.net currently is federated with .World but not Threads, so if .World makes changes, those may be seen from instances that are federated with it?
From my understanding, a specific post on .World that has interaction from Threads and slrpnk.net. Threads and .World would see everything while Slrpnk.Net would only see federated instances and .World comments.
We are about 1.5m here in the Fediverse. Threads is already 100m. That’s quite a large number of things to be missing, so it’s possible that there’s a large number of conversations that defederated users are only seeing half of? That could be another example that pushes Extinguish.
Anyway, sorry for any confusion or nonsense - I wrote this in a hurry on my phone, but I also wanted to lay out my thoughts and understand to see if it’s at all in the ballpark. Shit, just use me as Cunningham’s Law.
You’ve basically got it. To use the “Google XMPP” example some others have:
XMPP users existed, and its userbase was growing (similar to Lemmy). Google made Google Talk, a desktop chat application they used to have, compatible with XMPP (which was the “ActivityPub” of chat applications) (embrace).
After a bit, Google started adding their own proprietary stuff to XMPP. (It’s similar to how Apple/ Google added proprietary stuff in their respective text message applications, like reacting to a text with an emote.) The XMPP devs, for whatever reason, couldn’t or didn’t make Google’s own proprietary Google Talk features compatible with XMPP, so XMPP users might’ve started feeling left out (extend).
After a while, Google Talk got rid of its XMPP support, and, as a result, many XMPP users could no longer communicate with many of the friends they had made on the platform. (Since Google Talk users outnumbered XMPP users, there was a very high chance that people you communicated with on there were using Google Talk.) Google Talk users, on the other hand, simply noticed maybe one or two people on their list had gone offline permanently (extinguish).
Yeah this is the one, and it seems easy to see exactly that process taking place. I don’t think it’s so much the data concerns, alone at least, nor even the potential for content. I think many would agree that, to some extent having a larger user base available could be a good thing. It just so happens that 1) the user base is “more accessible” at best and potentially dangerous at its worst (not all of threads is friendly) and 2) it’s Meta. There couldn’t possibly be a reason for them to pursue this other than not having their grasp on it. I see no reason to trust it.
Someone you like on Threads and nowhere else. Use it there then. You can view them if it’s federated? Will that still be the case in 1, 2, 3 years? At which point you’ve integrated so much of your instance into Threads that when support for ActivityPub is dropped or whatever change gets made, well, you may as well stick with Threads…
There’s just no good outcome. I am an optimist, for the right perspective and reason devil’s advocate is always worth a glance… and this? This has no good causes behind it. Man, what is it with all the big corps and apps trying to tie everything into one single spot like WeChat. Can’t people just scroll Mastodon then X then Threads then Lemmy then Kbin then Facebook all separately like a normal mass consumer?
I actually don’t have a problem tying everything together. I think the fact that Mastodon and Lemmy can communicate with each other (even though it’s not really intentionally designed that way) is pretty neat.
What I do have a problem with is the corporations that are trying to do it. I don’t trust any corporation to do it responsibly, especially not Facebook.
I would love to federate with Reddit. I hate having a Reddit account. I hate their website layout and apps. I hate their ads. If I could access some of the niche reddit communities that aren’t on Lemmy without using Reddit that seems to have absolutely no downside.
The same way we prevented any of that up ’till now: by doing our own thing on our own terms.