It’s a clever method of trolling. But if you come prepared and/or are willing to put some effort in, you actually can wreck them with evidence and sound arguments that shuts them completely up.
Sealioning is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with relentless requests for evidence, often tangential or previously addressed, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity, and feigning ignorance of the subject matter.
Often the troll will just shift slightly and keep making demands regardless of evidence.
It’s easier said than done, but it can be done. The key is to unleash your inner troll and embrace the “u mad bro” while being
I recommend engaging once or twice in good faith, then hounding them to make a hard claim you can disprove. If they don’t, start politely asking if there’s any part they’d like to elaborate on while dropping implications they didn’t read or understand what you said, and then asking about their beliefs on the topic.
It happened to me on Lemmy a while ago, I don’t think the guy was actually a troll (I think he just didn’t like what I had to say about the world bank and imf being the reason central and South America have stayed so poor despite incredible natural resources)
The dude got so mad he started going through my old posts and calling me a hypocrite. But he made a mistake, that was a hard claim - there was no contradiction in my beliefs and stance. I slapped him down a few times before realizing my posts from days ago were getting a lot of responses
Once I started recognizing the username and realized what happened, I started getting patronizing… It was oh so satisfying. I kind of wish he’d kept going for longer
I love reverse trolling trolls, all of the fun and none of the guilt
It depends too much on way too many factors. Generally I’ll be almost as polite as they’re being.
Convos usually involve turn-taking though, so once you’ve provided evidence or a sound argument, you should not be forced to do it again. It should be their turn to assert something, and then possibly have to provide whatever.
Just don’t let the opportunity pass to treat them exactly, or potentially slightly worse, depending, than they’re treating you. Don’t stay on defense, assert, ask questions, directly contradict, whatever is needful.
Remember the original discussion and don’t take the bait to deviate. “We are not talking about X, we are talking about Y as originally posted by OP and I will not follow you down your rabbit hole.”
i don’t answer questions (present thread excepted). i insist someone say plainly what it is they are getting at. and if they refuse that’s that. if they persist in asking, i tell them not to be petulant. and if they present an argument, and it’s sound, i usually just let that stand. if it’s unsound, i let them know.
and, of course, one of the best ways is to never take a strong position yourself that can be sealioned.
Inform them that you’re wise to their game, and furthermore, they’re an idiot. Doesn’t cede the field to them but doesn’t let them persist in bad faith questions.
Internet arguments are like a rock paper scissors game of evidence based arguments, sealioning, and good old fashioned trolling.
Beat and kill them while they’re young and innocent before they become well informed, intelligent adults that can counter and challenge your firmly held beliefs?
It’s also frustrating because there are people who are sincerely trying to discuss in good faith while having a different opinion, which is camouflage for the sealion trolls.
Of course, people increasingly forget about the former group completely, and react with hostility… It’s understandable, but unfortunate for healthy discussion.
At least in your case, your response is to lay out robust arguments to explain your position, which is productive regardless of whether they’re trolling or sincere. I’ve learned a great deal over the years from strangers on the internet putting a clinic on someone who may or may not have been trolling.
True, which is why if someone accuses you of sealioning you should be prepared to explain your position and the reasoning you used to get there. Not asking questions of them but instead explaining your own position.
Well, in the specific case provided in the comic, the sealion has no position he can explain since the other side refuses to even establish how he got to his opinion.
So, the issue is that behaviorwise they’re indistinguishable from each other.
Intentionally or unintentionally ignoring signals that a person isn’t interested in debate or discussion with you is just as annoying to the person being bothered either way.
It doesn’t matter if your intentions are sincere or not when you decide to pester someone into a debate they’re not interested in having.
Just an anecdotal account. I was expressing my own experiences and how they make me feel, for which it would be challenging and largely unnecessary to provide evidence to a random dumbass on the internet, yes?
If your feelings are irrational, it’s incumbent on you as a rational person to examine them and separate emotion from fact. Since you have no facts to back up your feelings, clearly the feelings are irrational and should not be used to inform your actions or viewpoints, correct?
Not if I’m recounting a personal experience, no. Humans are not purely rational creatures, otherwise laissez faire capitalism would solve all the world’s problems.
If I wished to be purely rational, then perhaps. But personally I do not think all feelings are worth disregarding.
Would you mind providing evidence of a scenario in which it’s good to be irrational? Because it sounds like you have some level of distaste for being rational, but I’m not seeing any source to back that up.
Would you mind providing evidence of a scenario in which it’s good to be irrational?
I think I found the seal club, guys.
Asking someone to provide evidence of a scenario in which something is irrational is an irrational thing to ask. I’ll state why with a kind of example. So, say you have the choice between two boxes of corn flakes. You look between the two, and you decide to pick one. You, you specifically, decide to pick one. Perhaps, the red one, over the blue one, I can’t state this for you. Make up a reason why you chose that box. Now, this reason, which you have chosen, would it necessarily be a rational reason, for you to have chosen the box you did?
Presumably, yes, unless you’re going to argue against yourself, and say that, in this instance, it’s actually good to be irrational. In this instance, then, you’ve made a rational decision, you had a reason to believe the thing that you did. Now, taking this example, and what I’ve formerly said, about you not being irrational, in mind, can you think of any given scenario in which you’ve ever made an irrational decision? Perhaps you can, even, and it was bad, but also, presumably, you thought it was a rational decision at the time. It was probably (here is maybe where it gets iffy) only in hindsight, that you thought your previous belief was irrational.
Taking this into account, and extrapolating off of that experience, we can intuit that they probably didn’t mean what you meant when you (not you, the other guy, but also you right now I suppose) said the word “irrational”, they don’t share your definition of it. Because, kind of, based on these examples I’ve given, there would never be a circumstance in which it would make sense, i.e., “be rational”, for someone to make an irrational decision. This is a straight paradox, if we take that definition to be what they meant.
Then, considering this, right, we can assume they probably meant something else, other than what you have assumed. I will not claim to know what they meant.
Blam, sea lion that, motherfucker. You probably can if you tried really hard, but blam. Sea lion it. (this could be a pretty good example of sea-lioning, too, I gave you some pretty low-stakes, specific stuff to contest, there, that isn’t really part of the main argument, i.e. it’s the definition of a sealion).
Nah, I don’t feel like it. But if I were to do so, I’d probably say something like “this is laughably absurd, come back when you know how to debate” so as to avoid letting you steer the conversation.
No, that’s a frankly absurd request. What is or is not “good” is not something sourceable, it’s an entirely subjective question. What makes you think everything has some definitive source?
Excuse you, I’m being polite here and you’re calling me absurd. Can’t a person have a civil conversation without devolving into name-calling? And why haven’t you given a source? Are you unable to back up your claims, or are you unwilling to engage in rational dialogue?
I’m sorry, but if you want me to remain what you’d define as civil, you’re going to need to be reasonable, not ridiculous. You haven’t answered my question. Where does this belief all things are sourceable come from?
you tried to provide an argument and then failed when i replied with evidence as to why you were wrong and then you just responded to as many comments as you could saying im spam after saying “fuck you”. you labeled me as MAGA when you have no evidence other than im critical of biden and establishment dems.
i clearly disproved your point but you just continue on… pretending like you “won”
and im calling you maga spam because of the shear volume of lie and disinformation that is anti-biden, and “biden is worse than trump”
But for more than a year, Biden kept, and defended in court, Trump’s most sweeping border restriction: the Title 42 emergency order that allowed agents to cite the Covid-19 pandemic to quickly expel migrants without hearing asylum claims.
It’s a clever method of trolling. But if you come prepared and/or are willing to put some effort in, you actually can wreck them with evidence and sound arguments that shuts them completely up.
This is very satisfying.
Often the troll will just shift slightly and keep making demands regardless of evidence.
Don’t let them dictate the convo. You can assert control as well, don’t let them lead uncontested.
Still sounds like feeding the troll
The point is not to fight the troll.
The point is to inform the lurkers.
Exactly this.
If done poorly it very much is. But practice makes you better at it.
It’s easier said than done, but it can be done. The key is to unleash your inner troll and embrace the “u mad bro” while being
I recommend engaging once or twice in good faith, then hounding them to make a hard claim you can disprove. If they don’t, start politely asking if there’s any part they’d like to elaborate on while dropping implications they didn’t read or understand what you said, and then asking about their beliefs on the topic.
It happened to me on Lemmy a while ago, I don’t think the guy was actually a troll (I think he just didn’t like what I had to say about the world bank and imf being the reason central and South America have stayed so poor despite incredible natural resources)
The dude got so mad he started going through my old posts and calling me a hypocrite. But he made a mistake, that was a hard claim - there was no contradiction in my beliefs and stance. I slapped him down a few times before realizing my posts from days ago were getting a lot of responses
Once I started recognizing the username and realized what happened, I started getting patronizing… It was oh so satisfying. I kind of wish he’d kept going for longer
I love reverse trolling trolls, all of the fun and none of the guilt
What’s your usual method of parry?
It depends too much on way too many factors. Generally I’ll be almost as polite as they’re being.
Convos usually involve turn-taking though, so once you’ve provided evidence or a sound argument, you should not be forced to do it again. It should be their turn to assert something, and then possibly have to provide whatever.
Just don’t let the opportunity pass to treat them exactly, or potentially slightly worse, depending, than they’re treating you. Don’t stay on defense, assert, ask questions, directly contradict, whatever is needful.
When repetition occurs I link to the previous point in the conversation.
Remember the original discussion and don’t take the bait to deviate. “We are not talking about X, we are talking about Y as originally posted by OP and I will not follow you down your rabbit hole.”
i don’t answer questions (present thread excepted). i insist someone say plainly what it is they are getting at. and if they refuse that’s that. if they persist in asking, i tell them not to be petulant. and if they present an argument, and it’s sound, i usually just let that stand. if it’s unsound, i let them know.
and, of course, one of the best ways is to never take a strong position yourself that can be sealioned.
For me, relentless mockery is best
Inform them that you’re wise to their game, and furthermore, they’re an idiot. Doesn’t cede the field to them but doesn’t let them persist in bad faith questions.
Internet arguments are like a rock paper scissors game of evidence based arguments, sealioning, and good old fashioned trolling.
This is why we need seal clubbing
I don’t know. They stay out too late, get way too drunk and make a terrible racket when they get home.
Can you provide evidence of one time this has ever happened in your area?
I constantly see ads for hot tight seals in my area.
Pardon me, I couldn’t help but overhear…
Would you mind showing me evidence of any negative thing any sea lion has ever done to you?
I’m just curious if you have any sources to back up your opinion that seal lions need clubbing.
Fair enough, could you club me instead?
Beat and kill them while they’re young and innocent before they become well informed, intelligent adults that can counter and challenge your firmly held beliefs?
Agreed
IM GONNA CLUB THIS SEAL TO MAKE A BETTER DEAL
It’s also frustrating because there are people who are sincerely trying to discuss in good faith while having a different opinion, which is camouflage for the sealion trolls.
Of course, people increasingly forget about the former group completely, and react with hostility… It’s understandable, but unfortunate for healthy discussion.
At least in your case, your response is to lay out robust arguments to explain your position, which is productive regardless of whether they’re trolling or sincere. I’ve learned a great deal over the years from strangers on the internet putting a clinic on someone who may or may not have been trolling.
Accusing people of “sealioning” is a great way to not have to defend or discuss poorly thought out or sourced claims.
True, which is why if someone accuses you of sealioning you should be prepared to explain your position and the reasoning you used to get there. Not asking questions of them but instead explaining your own position.
Well, in the specific case provided in the comic, the sealion has no position he can explain since the other side refuses to even establish how he got to his opinion.
I guess a corollary would be, first, don’t actually sealion.
The problem I see is when the original poster didn’t explain their point of view, but complain when you ask them to clarify.
So, the issue is that behaviorwise they’re indistinguishable from each other.
Intentionally or unintentionally ignoring signals that a person isn’t interested in debate or discussion with you is just as annoying to the person being bothered either way.
It doesn’t matter if your intentions are sincere or not when you decide to pester someone into a debate they’re not interested in having.
Yeah true, the persistent pestering component is arguably always trolling. I guess that’s one of the signals that you can use to distinguish.
I can still think of gray areas, but I guess that’s why it’s effective camouflage.
Another signal is their complete lack of interest in anything you’ve said outside of what they want to pester you about.
Care to provide any evidence to support this claim? I would like to have a civil discussion with you about this. /s
Just an anecdotal account. I was expressing my own experiences and how they make me feel, for which it would be challenging and largely unnecessary to provide evidence to a random dumbass on the internet, yes?
/not s, an example
If your feelings are irrational, it’s incumbent on you as a rational person to examine them and separate emotion from fact. Since you have no facts to back up your feelings, clearly the feelings are irrational and should not be used to inform your actions or viewpoints, correct?
Not if I’m recounting a personal experience, no. Humans are not purely rational creatures, otherwise laissez faire capitalism would solve all the world’s problems.
If I wished to be purely rational, then perhaps. But personally I do not think all feelings are worth disregarding.
Would you mind providing evidence of a scenario in which it’s good to be irrational? Because it sounds like you have some level of distaste for being rational, but I’m not seeing any source to back that up.
I think I found the seal club, guys.
Asking someone to provide evidence of a scenario in which something is irrational is an irrational thing to ask. I’ll state why with a kind of example. So, say you have the choice between two boxes of corn flakes. You look between the two, and you decide to pick one. You, you specifically, decide to pick one. Perhaps, the red one, over the blue one, I can’t state this for you. Make up a reason why you chose that box. Now, this reason, which you have chosen, would it necessarily be a rational reason, for you to have chosen the box you did?
Presumably, yes, unless you’re going to argue against yourself, and say that, in this instance, it’s actually good to be irrational. In this instance, then, you’ve made a rational decision, you had a reason to believe the thing that you did. Now, taking this example, and what I’ve formerly said, about you not being irrational, in mind, can you think of any given scenario in which you’ve ever made an irrational decision? Perhaps you can, even, and it was bad, but also, presumably, you thought it was a rational decision at the time. It was probably (here is maybe where it gets iffy) only in hindsight, that you thought your previous belief was irrational.
Taking this into account, and extrapolating off of that experience, we can intuit that they probably didn’t mean what you meant when you (not you, the other guy, but also you right now I suppose) said the word “irrational”, they don’t share your definition of it. Because, kind of, based on these examples I’ve given, there would never be a circumstance in which it would make sense, i.e., “be rational”, for someone to make an irrational decision. This is a straight paradox, if we take that definition to be what they meant.
Then, considering this, right, we can assume they probably meant something else, other than what you have assumed. I will not claim to know what they meant.
Blam, sea lion that, motherfucker. You probably can if you tried really hard, but blam. Sea lion it. (this could be a pretty good example of sea-lioning, too, I gave you some pretty low-stakes, specific stuff to contest, there, that isn’t really part of the main argument, i.e. it’s the definition of a sealion).
Nah, I don’t feel like it. But if I were to do so, I’d probably say something like “this is laughably absurd, come back when you know how to debate” so as to avoid letting you steer the conversation.
No, that’s a frankly absurd request. What is or is not “good” is not something sourceable, it’s an entirely subjective question. What makes you think everything has some definitive source?
Excuse you, I’m being polite here and you’re calling me absurd. Can’t a person have a civil conversation without devolving into name-calling? And why haven’t you given a source? Are you unable to back up your claims, or are you unwilling to engage in rational dialogue?
I’m sorry, but if you want me to remain what you’d define as civil, you’re going to need to be reasonable, not ridiculous. You haven’t answered my question. Where does this belief all things are sourceable come from?
Perfect response!
they don’t shut up though, they just change topics
e.g. @clubbing4198/lemmy.world
Just call it out and redirect back to the topic. It’s like training a dog.
you can train a LLM like a dog…
you tried to provide an argument and then failed when i replied with evidence as to why you were wrong and then you just responded to as many comments as you could saying im spam after saying “fuck you”. you labeled me as MAGA when you have no evidence other than im critical of biden and establishment dems.
Pardon me, I couldn’t help but overhear. Would you mind showing me evidence of any negative thing Biden has ever done to you personally?
You seem like the AT&T of people.
i clearly disproved your point but you just continue on… pretending like you “won”
and im calling you maga spam because of the shear volume of lie and disinformation that is anti-biden, and “biden is worse than trump”
fuck off, maga spam
im not pro biden, anyways… im anti-trump
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the one about immigration. the one regarding this information: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/13/title-42-migration-biden-new-policy-tougher
And this:
https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/21/politics/biden-considering-executive-action-to-close-southern-border-sources-say/index.html
cause you were saying that biden has done well for immigration. those articles read contrary to that narrative
fuck off, maga spam
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if you start the line with a # it is a LOT bigger. be sure to include a space after the # though
THANK YOU!!
Show me one thing i have said that is pro tump? Biden is just as bad as trump not worse. Do not put words in my mouth