Some on the left were still lukewarm towards Hindenburg; the Communists exploited this by running Thälmann and promoting him as “the only left candidate”. Hindenburg failed to receive the requisite majority of votes in the first round, but was able to win reelection in the runoff.
Hindenburg’s reelection failed to prevent the NSDAP from assuming power. Two successive federal elections later that year left it as the largest party in the Reichstag, and anti-republic parties in general holding the majority of seats.
Hindenburg wasn’t left enough for many of the Communists, and they thought that getting a candidate they’d feel better about supporting was more important than stopping Hitler.
It was the last election many of them ever saw, although of course they didn’t know it at the time.
That’s not that point, Hindenburg was still elected as the lesser evil and Hitler was made fucking chancellor. Electing a lesser evil changes very little if they are still evil. Hindenburg was even supported by a large portion of the SPD (unfortunately). This is often seen as social democrats turning on the left as usual. Hindenburg wasn’t even left, of course communist didn’t support him.
Hindenburg being elected did not stop the NSDAP from seizing power is the entire point of my argument. It only delayed it slightly. Having communist support would never have changed this. Having a communist government might have (but obviously that is pure fantasy given the political situation at the time).
I’m actually realizing after my rambling that I’m not entirely sure what point you are trying to make? Are you suggesting is the fault of communist that Hindenburg’s election was insufficient in preventing Nazi control? /Gen
Edit: I think what you’re saying is that communists almost put hitler in power sooner but introducing a third party candidate that took votes from Hindenburg?
In this case I see what you mean and understand why you would see it that way. However this is the fault of the political system in place forcing that sort of situation which is why I advocate for the dismantling of that system. I do not agree with thälmann and the KPD’s belief that a government and it’s society can be reformed through electoralism. Materially I understand how placing a third candidate into that election was incredibly risky I just think that shouldn’t be a problem. We shouldn’t have to worry that pushing for progressive change within the system will cause the opposite.
I’m with you when you say Biden is better than trump but I’m not with you when you attempt to work within a system that is designed specifically to benefit the bourgeoisie in order to improve conditions for the proletariat. In my eyes it’s absurd to believe that its even possible to do so.
Damage control does not lead to positive change, it just delays the inevitable harm
If you’re interested I recommend reading reform or revolution by Rosa Luxembourg. I don’t expect you to radically change your views on this but I think you deserve to understand where I’m coming from. I get it if you think communist desire for revolution is pure fantasy, living within the imperial core will do that to you but please give it a shot. Try to understand. It’s worth it, I was like you once. Most of us were.
You sent me that already. I’ll check it out at some point.
I just don’t see them as mutually exclusive. You can vote for the candidate who’s not going to immediately destroy the country and replace it with a nightmare Republican dictatorship, while also working for positive change in other ways. Those both seem like no-brainer good ideas to me.
Personally, I think “overthrow of the system” has to be done while preserving the good parts. There are a lot of countries which have overthrown a bad system only to replace it with a much, much worse system. If you don’t like voting, then you’re basically abdicating control of your country to whoever has enough money and power to take it over outside of democratic norms which currently keep it nominally in some kind of grey area semi-fascist state, thus enabling its catapult into full fascism. I fail to see how helping Trump get elected is going to do anything for any activists or anybody who’s trying to do anything worthwhile society-change-wise, because the first thing he’ll do is order the National Guard, or whatever modern-day SS equivalent the Florida State Guard and CBP evolve into, to just shoot anyone that causes any trouble.
Hindenburg is, in fact, an excellent analogy. The NSDAP was left with a plurality in parliament after a disappointing stalemated election, the Communists failed to support the Bidens and Nancy Pelosis of their day, for reasons which probably seemed perfectly reasonable at the time, so that with their mandates undermined they fell one by one. Hitler had a strong mandate from the crazy people, and was better able to use new technology and organizational techniques, so that as the establishment crumbled he was able to progressively strengthen his position. And, in the immediate aftermath of Hindenburg’s death and Hitler’s ascendance, the Communists of course suffered the worst of his vengeance, followed by a whole lot more than 27,000 people elsewhere in the world (if the massacre in Gaza is what’s making you not want to vote against Trump in this election).
I’ll admit you seem to know a lot more about Nazi history than I do so I’ll concede that analogy. I also don’t really pay attention to usernames my bad for sending that book twice but I suppose it’s no real harm.
I’m also with you when you say that revolutions have ended very poorly in the past but this does not mean that revolution itself is a bad idea. It’s just been poorly executed due to lack of leftist organization and class consciousness. This is why leftist argue so much on the internet, we desperately want to spread class consciousness so that we don’t end up with a reactionary, fascist overthrow instead of a leftist revolution because eventually it will come to that. Granted, the imperial core is not at all at the point where revolution is even close to viable.
My main reason for not voting for Biden is in fact the genocide but it’s also the neoliberalism and the institutions he represents as well as not believing he is fit to run a country, not that trump is better in that regard. I will probably vote for Biden begrudgingly because materially I know I basically have no other option but I’m gonna removed and moan about it because morally it hurts. It feels wrong to give someone like that my political support. I desperately want to be principled and not vote for him because I know that voting for him only encourages both parties to move further right as there is no real political motive to move left unless they are losing votes but I’m terrified of what might happen if Trump wins. Which is unfortunately exactly what our political and economic elites want.
I hate knowing that I have to support real genocide to maybe prevent a hypothetical worse genocide.
I also want to stress that because of this I do not blame leftists who abstain from voting or vote third party, I will never hold it against them as long as they are actively finding other ways to effect the political system.
I will probably vote for Biden begrudgingly because materially I know I basically have no other option but I’m gonna removed and moan about it because morally it hurts. It feels wrong to give someone like that my political support.
Yeah, I feel this, absolutely. I was registered as third party for the first few elections I voted in because of this depressing reality. I still remember wild applause from the audience when Ron Paul started talking about stuff that made sense, that was like this surprising alien voodoo-man talk from the perspective of the depressing robots he was running against. But I also don’t want Trump to make things 10 times worse.
I desperately want to be principled and not vote for him because I know that voting for him only encourages both parties to move further right as there is no real political motive to move left unless they are losing votes
The thing is, there are a ton of ways to influence politics other than just voting or not voting. The whole thing of not voting to “send a message” to try to influence them to move further left, or waiting until somehow some better candidates emerge by magic, just doesn’t make sense to me. I’m not trying to be some rah-rah after school special about it, but vote in the primaries, talk to congresspeople, give money, run for some small local office yourself, basically anything other than just waiting at home and posting on the internet until it gets better on its own, sounds like a better idea.
The miners who fought and died for basic rights would laugh in your or my face at how easy it is now. It’s definitely not completely fair or easy, no, the system is rigged. But compared with a lot of places where people made real progress, it’s less rigged here and now, if that makes you feel better.
If running for dogcatcher is easy to dismiss because it won’t really make a difference… well, sitting at home and not voting to send a message will make less of a difference than running for dogcatcher will. Up to you.
And like I said I’m not at all trying to discount the vital necessity of also organizing outside the system. Only voting seems like a road to more neoliberal misery regardless of whether Trump gets to end the whole experiment this year or not.
but I’m terrified of what might happen if Trump wins. Which is unfortunately exactly what our political and economic elites want.
I don’t think they planned on Trump. I think they created the conditions that led to him, but they desperately want him gone because of what he might turn loose.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1932_German_presidential_election
Hindenburg wasn’t left enough for many of the Communists, and they thought that getting a candidate they’d feel better about supporting was more important than stopping Hitler.
It was the last election many of them ever saw, although of course they didn’t know it at the time.
That’s not that point, Hindenburg was still elected as the lesser evil and Hitler was made fucking chancellor. Electing a lesser evil changes very little if they are still evil. Hindenburg was even supported by a large portion of the SPD (unfortunately). This is often seen as social democrats turning on the left as usual. Hindenburg wasn’t even left, of course communist didn’t support him.
Hindenburg being elected did not stop the NSDAP from seizing power is the entire point of my argument. It only delayed it slightly. Having communist support would never have changed this. Having a communist government might have (but obviously that is pure fantasy given the political situation at the time).
I’m actually realizing after my rambling that I’m not entirely sure what point you are trying to make? Are you suggesting is the fault of communist that Hindenburg’s election was insufficient in preventing Nazi control? /Gen
Edit: I think what you’re saying is that communists almost put hitler in power sooner but introducing a third party candidate that took votes from Hindenburg?
In this case I see what you mean and understand why you would see it that way. However this is the fault of the political system in place forcing that sort of situation which is why I advocate for the dismantling of that system. I do not agree with thälmann and the KPD’s belief that a government and it’s society can be reformed through electoralism. Materially I understand how placing a third candidate into that election was incredibly risky I just think that shouldn’t be a problem. We shouldn’t have to worry that pushing for progressive change within the system will cause the opposite.
I’m with you when you say Biden is better than trump but I’m not with you when you attempt to work within a system that is designed specifically to benefit the bourgeoisie in order to improve conditions for the proletariat. In my eyes it’s absurd to believe that its even possible to do so.
Damage control does not lead to positive change, it just delays the inevitable harm
If you’re interested I recommend reading reform or revolution by Rosa Luxembourg. I don’t expect you to radically change your views on this but I think you deserve to understand where I’m coming from. I get it if you think communist desire for revolution is pure fantasy, living within the imperial core will do that to you but please give it a shot. Try to understand. It’s worth it, I was like you once. Most of us were.
You sent me that already. I’ll check it out at some point.
I just don’t see them as mutually exclusive. You can vote for the candidate who’s not going to immediately destroy the country and replace it with a nightmare Republican dictatorship, while also working for positive change in other ways. Those both seem like no-brainer good ideas to me.
Personally, I think “overthrow of the system” has to be done while preserving the good parts. There are a lot of countries which have overthrown a bad system only to replace it with a much, much worse system. If you don’t like voting, then you’re basically abdicating control of your country to whoever has enough money and power to take it over outside of democratic norms which currently keep it nominally in some kind of grey area semi-fascist state, thus enabling its catapult into full fascism. I fail to see how helping Trump get elected is going to do anything for any activists or anybody who’s trying to do anything worthwhile society-change-wise, because the first thing he’ll do is order the National Guard, or whatever modern-day SS equivalent the Florida State Guard and CBP evolve into, to just shoot anyone that causes any trouble.
Hindenburg is, in fact, an excellent analogy. The NSDAP was left with a plurality in parliament after a disappointing stalemated election, the Communists failed to support the Bidens and Nancy Pelosis of their day, for reasons which probably seemed perfectly reasonable at the time, so that with their mandates undermined they fell one by one. Hitler had a strong mandate from the crazy people, and was better able to use new technology and organizational techniques, so that as the establishment crumbled he was able to progressively strengthen his position. And, in the immediate aftermath of Hindenburg’s death and Hitler’s ascendance, the Communists of course suffered the worst of his vengeance, followed by a whole lot more than 27,000 people elsewhere in the world (if the massacre in Gaza is what’s making you not want to vote against Trump in this election).
I’ll admit you seem to know a lot more about Nazi history than I do so I’ll concede that analogy. I also don’t really pay attention to usernames my bad for sending that book twice but I suppose it’s no real harm.
I’m also with you when you say that revolutions have ended very poorly in the past but this does not mean that revolution itself is a bad idea. It’s just been poorly executed due to lack of leftist organization and class consciousness. This is why leftist argue so much on the internet, we desperately want to spread class consciousness so that we don’t end up with a reactionary, fascist overthrow instead of a leftist revolution because eventually it will come to that. Granted, the imperial core is not at all at the point where revolution is even close to viable.
My main reason for not voting for Biden is in fact the genocide but it’s also the neoliberalism and the institutions he represents as well as not believing he is fit to run a country, not that trump is better in that regard. I will probably vote for Biden begrudgingly because materially I know I basically have no other option but I’m gonna removed and moan about it because morally it hurts. It feels wrong to give someone like that my political support. I desperately want to be principled and not vote for him because I know that voting for him only encourages both parties to move further right as there is no real political motive to move left unless they are losing votes but I’m terrified of what might happen if Trump wins. Which is unfortunately exactly what our political and economic elites want.
I hate knowing that I have to support real genocide to maybe prevent a hypothetical worse genocide.
I also want to stress that because of this I do not blame leftists who abstain from voting or vote third party, I will never hold it against them as long as they are actively finding other ways to effect the political system.
Yeah, I feel this, absolutely. I was registered as third party for the first few elections I voted in because of this depressing reality. I still remember wild applause from the audience when Ron Paul started talking about stuff that made sense, that was like this surprising alien voodoo-man talk from the perspective of the depressing robots he was running against. But I also don’t want Trump to make things 10 times worse.
The thing is, there are a ton of ways to influence politics other than just voting or not voting. The whole thing of not voting to “send a message” to try to influence them to move further left, or waiting until somehow some better candidates emerge by magic, just doesn’t make sense to me. I’m not trying to be some rah-rah after school special about it, but vote in the primaries, talk to congresspeople, give money, run for some small local office yourself, basically anything other than just waiting at home and posting on the internet until it gets better on its own, sounds like a better idea.
The miners who fought and died for basic rights would laugh in your or my face at how easy it is now. It’s definitely not completely fair or easy, no, the system is rigged. But compared with a lot of places where people made real progress, it’s less rigged here and now, if that makes you feel better.
If running for dogcatcher is easy to dismiss because it won’t really make a difference… well, sitting at home and not voting to send a message will make less of a difference than running for dogcatcher will. Up to you.
And like I said I’m not at all trying to discount the vital necessity of also organizing outside the system. Only voting seems like a road to more neoliberal misery regardless of whether Trump gets to end the whole experiment this year or not.
I don’t think they planned on Trump. I think they created the conditions that led to him, but they desperately want him gone because of what he might turn loose.