This is some serious whataboutism. Yeah, we know Hamas does this but that doesn’t make it ok to do what Israel is doing either.
Unfortunately, some observers are casting doubts on the Hamas atrocities.
That being said, I agree entirely that this is just a deflection attempt from Israel.
That being said, I agree entirely that this is just a deflection attempt from Israel.
Just like the hospital strike initially was, before it turned out they did that themselves. The deflection wars started have.
Correction: They didn’t do it themselves. It was a misfire by Islamic Jihad.
And that’s not even fully confirmed yet. Some doubts are still in the air such as the direction of shrapnel being from the North-East and the “Hamas Audio” was proven doctored.
To my understanding, said audio “doctoring” is consistent with splicing multiple sources together. Which… makes sense if multiple people were tapped. Same with enhancing audio so it is… audible.
But yeah. We are well into “crisis actor” and “jet fuel can’t melt steel beams” territory. And we will never leave it short of definitive proof that Netanyahu drove the bomb over himself.
Which is why there is a push to remind people: Hamas is a horrifically evil terrorist group with a LONG history of atrocities.
Which, just because people are stupid, does not mean that Mossad and the IDF aren’t ALSO an evil terrorist group for all intents and purposes.
People said the dialect is off in the audio, and it sounds staged.
I don’t think we’re in conspiracy theory territory, there’s evidence against both sides and both sides have lied. We don’t know wtf happened.
From a quick google, the top result regarding the dialogue discrepancy is Al Jazeera. And, much like with the BBC and other state funded news networks: Take everything they say about their own government’s interests with a massive grain of salt. I have yet to find any cited sources on the dialect claim, but it is also worth understanding that we already know Iran is (allegedly) involved and terrorist groups in neighboring countries have been taking advantage of the chaos. So for the splinter group that allegedly did this to have people who don’t speak with a perfect Gaza dialect is not a smoking gun.
Do you have a solid resource regarding the dialect claims? Would be curious in reading more.
For what its worth, Bellingcat is generally a pretty good “popular science” source for topics like this. And while they have yet to formally come down on one side or another, their initial findings are consistent with it not being Israeli JDAMs and did not dispute claims that the attack “came from within Gaza” https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2023/10/18/identifying-possible-crater-from-gaza-hospital-blast/
But also: “there’s evidence against both sides and both sides have lied. We don’t know wtf happened” is exactly what I am talking about. We have “people” speculating about dialects. As opposed to multiple governments (not just the US slobbering all over that circumcised winky) increasingly acknowledging that it appears to not be the IDF and news outlets retracting their claims.
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Israel isn’t mass murdering Palestinian children. They’re bombing Hamas terrorists, who are using children as human shields. That is 100% on the terrorists.
You’re fooling yourself if you think the Israeli military actually knows where Hamas is and is target bombing. If they knew where Hamas bomb factories and the like were, then they would have bombed them before the attack. Israel is just bombing random targets. Like apparently several thousand strikes, some serious WW2 level bombardment. Seems much more likely such factories would be underground.
You’re falling into the trap of thinking Israel has some kind of legendary intelligence force when the attack showed they were only fooling themselves.
The intense bombing is just to drive away the population and empty out the area so the Israeli military can go in with ground forces without taking a lot of casualties. They won’t go in on the ground unless a majority of people leave the area. Urban fighting with high rise buildings is a guarantee for mass casualties on the attacking force. The Israeli military is mostly reservists, so a lot of people with minimal combat experience and mostly did checkpoint duties in their active time in the IDF.
Gaza is among the most densely packed population on earth. Dropping bombs where there are schools, supermarkets, apartment buildings and hospitals is a deliberate attempt by Israel to terror bomb and mass murder. This is bloodthirsty revenge by a racist ethnostate.
This is bloodthirsty revenge by a racist ethnostate.
If they released all the hostages or hadn’t taken any brazenly in the first place it might be purely revenge but I tend to think that had some effect.
I mean they should be negotiating for the release of hostages. There’s no reason to believe that these bombings will have any effect on hostage release, especially since Israel is considering a ground incursion into Gaza to wipe out Hamas.
Don’t swallow the whole hook, it makes it difficult to get out.
Fuck, man, a genocide doesn’t have to be the fucking Holocaust to be bad.
Yeah, the Germans skipped the decades and decades of a apartheid regime and skipped straight to open genocide after a handful of years of oppression.
Clearly Israel should have listened better to how to get rid of the untermench living among them. /S
I see we’ve moved from appeal to emotion and whataboutism to Motte and Bailey, might I suggest an appeal to ignorance next.
you can say this about nearly any conflict in history
Yes, but this is disproportionate. The people are walled in, they have no prospects, they can’t go anywhere, they have no army. This bombing is disproportionate. This isn’t defense. It’s genocide.
War is disproportionate. It is not about “you shot two of my guys so I get to shoot two of your guys”. It is about beating your opponent to the point that the rich fuck on the throne decides it is not worth having his peasants fight anymore.
Hamas, the de facto military and government of Gaza, attacked Israel. The IDF, the de jure military and de facto government of Israel are attacking Gaza. That is “war”
Is it genocide? Yes. Have Israel’s government effectively been engaging in a slow genocide of the Palestinian people for decades? Yes
But this is largely no different than the mass bombings of Japan and Germany in WW2. Or any east asian town the US could find in the 50s and 60s. It is just that, for all its OTHER human rights violations, the US was very “white glove” during our subjugation of Iraq and Afghanistan so people forgot what a mass bombing is. Because it is not like anyone cared about all the wars in Africa (brown people) and Eastern Europe.
Do I think this is a horrific human rights abuse and real time genocide? Yes. But, again, that is “war”. And Hamas have mostly just bunkered down and tried to play the PR war (which is somehow working for a terrorist group…).
This ends when Hamas surrenders or the IDF runs out of ammunition. Just like any siege. And if Hamas gave even the slightest shit about the Palestinian people? They would be negotiating to surrender to a third party and get tried in The Hague rather than allowing the IDF to take them alive.
Stop and think about what you’re advocating here. You’re a piece of shit if you can justify even one civilian death here.
I am advocating for nothing. I am explaining what is happening and that this is how things have happened for hundreds of years.
Well, no, that is a lie. I am advocating for the leaders of Hamas to turn themselves over to the international court so that this war can end. Avoid getting Disappeared by the IDF, but very much remove the “justification” for the IDF to siege Gaza.
The moment you went for “Yes, but…” on war crimes and crimes against humanity, you lost your way.
Condem all war crimes, Israel’s, Hamas, Chinas, America’s, IDC where you live or who you sympathize with, never “but” a war crime or crimes against humanity.
Edit: Downvoting condemnation of war crimes is my point. Thank you for showing us what you are.
Both can be true. It’s not worth having a discussion about how two fully backed wealthy nation states going into a conflict is the same as one of those nations going after a population of 2million, 50% of which are children, living in roughly 45 square km total. They’re just not.
Imagine living in an area smaller than manhattan, with a fraction of the population. That’s it. That’s your world. You’re not allowed to leave. You’re not allowed to travel. Good luck with your future prospects. What a fucking joke to think that ~1 million people can successfully run anything let alone represent the population and government in these conditions.
Oh and by the way these bombs are about to destroy what little of your shit life you had. Oh and you’re the oppressor against the bigger nations. And oh you deserve this.
So yeah, all war sucks. But you can’t turn a blind eye to how disproportionate this is. That makes it worse. That makes it unjustifiably worse. We are literally witnesses an extermination of a people. And here is a huge contingent of people applauding what Israel is up to. Fuuuuuuck me.
So what you’re saying is noone is allowed to talk about the terrible things Hamas do, it’s only ok to talk about the terrible things Israel do? Any time someone says Hamas did a bad thing people like you immediately point to Israel and say “what about them”.
Your hypocrisy is astonishing.
Holy projection, batman!
Not really.
It is more that, over the past few weeks, all the major talking points have been “did Hamas rape that specific woman” or “did Hamas decapitate that baby or just set it on fire and kick it around a bit” and so forth. And, regardless of what actually happened with that hospital, “the entire world” is going to always assume it was Israel.
This is an attempt to point out how incredibly stupid all that was. because maybe Hamas raped the woman they stripped beat, and maybe killed (have we heard anything since her mother claimed she was in a hospital?). They definitely have raped plenty of other women. Maybe Hamas decapitated those babies and maybe they just burned them alive and desecrated their corpses. But they have decapitated plenty of other babies and people. And so forth
Which is less about “Well, the IDF is justified for all their crimes against humanity now” and more “Well. Both sides are pretty evil and I guess this is a war?”
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Picking a side in “Hamas vs Israel” is a losing battle. The side everyone should be on is “anti-apartheid”. Colonialism and apartheid have predictable effects, one of which is blowback in the form of resistance groups/“terrorists”.
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No one is saying that all Jews are bad in this thread. Where are you seeing that? There’s a difference between blaming Israeli government and military for killing innocents and saying all Jews are bad.
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Get out of here with that, nobody is saying it’s all Israelis or all Jews. In fact there’s quite a few Israeli Jews that stand with the Palestinians. But you aren’t making your comments in good faith. “But I don’t know who to side with, Israel or Hamas” You don’t have to side with either of them.
That’s sort of true. Israel is a democracy, and Netenyahu is ruling as the head of a far right coalition. Far right (well right in general) in Israel means that your position on Palestine is… everything you’ve seen these past two weeks. The people following orders on the ground are also Israeli.
While not everyone is to blame, many more Israelis are complicit than just the government.
Oh, fuck no, Hamas are terrible. Unfortunately, they’re all bad.
War crimes, lots of them.
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Adding to what everyone else said there’s telling people to evacuate to certain locations and then bombing them, bombing evacuating trucks full of mostly women and children (who can’t be Hamas fighters) and using white phosphorus.
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Evacuating trucks bombed.
White phosphorus.
https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/10/13/idf-white-phosphorus-oct-2023/
Joe Baiers woke up in Idiocracy and wonders “what is going on?”
Genocide
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Joined 4 months ago and this is their ONE comment. Wth
Give Joe Bauers some Brawndo.
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Any latecomers to the thread are heartily encouraged to skip this comment section, stretch, relax their neck and shoulders, and drink some water.
Only valid response in the thread. Damn. Some people.
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I wish I listened to your warning
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Israeli authorities have shown harrowing footage of killings and mutilations during Hamas’s rampage in southern Israel on 7 October.
The government showed the 43-minute compilation in a private screening for dozens of foreign journalists at a military base in Tel Aviv on Monday to counter what it said were attempts to deny or downplay the extent of the atrocities.
The audience was not allowed to record the compilation but one excerpt, approximately one minute long, was released to the public: it showed Hamas militants flagging down a car as it drove slowly along a rural road.
The gunmen open fire, hitting the vehicle, which swerved and halted, revealing two people slumped in the front seats.
Still images showed a decapitated soldier, charred human remains, including those of young children, and several Islamic State flags, the Times of Israel reported.
The screening took place amid renewed appeals to Israel to halt its bombing of Gaza, which killed at least 400 Palestinians in the past 24 hours, bringing the total death toll in the territory to more than 5,000, according to the Hamas-run health ministry.
The original article contains 567 words, the summary contains 183 words. Saved 68%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
That they have to even have to counter denial is so incredibly fucked. So many terrorism and war-crime aligned apologists, it’s just horrific.
The audience was not allowed to record the compilation but one excerpt, approximately one minute long, was released to the public
So 1 minute of verified footage?
Edit: release the snyder cut
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Why so you can celebrate it? Holy fuck man, your attempt to sew doubt is exactly why they released it. You should consider not being pro terrorist and war crimes.
Your comment literally make the point. JUST WOW.
your attempt to sew doubt is exactly why they released it.
Except they didn’t release it. They released one minute of footage. All I’m asking is that we let the journalists verify the other 42 minutes.
Is that really an insane ask? It’s not
“The government showed the 43-minute compilation in a private screening for dozens of foreign journalists”
They reviewed 43 min. Read the article. I wouldn’t release it publicly either for Hamas to recruit with and celebrate.
I reviewed Lord of the Rings for 11h 22m, it was legit. Elves are real and the trees are currently talking to me.
The Hamas killings were terrible and started all of this in the first place.
I think you’ll find that the conflict is quite a bit older than Hamas is.
And older than Israel
Just not older than Zionism.
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Good answer.
I remember when Hamas put Netanyahu in power, allowing him to beat Perez by less than 1% thanks to their suicide and bus bombings of civilians. They been loyal partners wver since. And Hamas made sure that Israel couldn’t politically sustain the withdrawal of Palestian territories and autonomy that had happened. A lot of ppl don’t even know that happened (Isreal withdrawal and autonomy).
No one is seriously denying the horrors of 7 Oct. They didn’t do this to counter anything, they did it to shock journalists. Frankly, I think what they did was abusive.
Are you suggesting they kidnapped the journalists and forced them to watch it? As far as I’ve understood, this was voluntary.
Also, there absolutely are corners of the internet that are denying that any atrocities occurred at all.
Corners of the internet, sure. However those people aren’t going to be convinced by some journalists they don’t know watching 43 minutes of curated gore porn.
Voluntary or not, videos like that would be traumatising and most journalists would feel obligated to watch - it’s their job.
Yes, they are… you don’t even have to leave lemmy to see them. It’s super low effort to find. Just browse a little.
No one is seriously denying the horrors of 7 Oct.
Replace seriously with “honestly” or “genuinely” if it suits you better.
My point is, saying it didn’t happen isn’t a proper argument, and this presentation isn’t genuinely meant to address that position either. It’s meant to horrify people and distract from the atrocities that have happened since.
