- cross-posted to:
- palestine@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- palestine@lemmy.ml
More video and eyewitness info on Al Jazeera so far
Also reported on Common Dreams and Middle East Eye.
I haven’t found any reports of any independent investigations yet, hopefully they are underway
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A question for the genocide deniers that’ll pop into this thread to spout their monstrous nonsense…
Can you point to a way in which the actions, policies, or rhetoric of the Israeli government meaningfully differs from those of Novemberpogrome-era (Krystalnacht-era) Nazi Germany?
This isn’t pointed at any individual, so I’m not even putting you on the spot - this is an opportunity for you to bring your best answers.
Can you point to a way in which the actions, policies, or rhetoric of the Israeli government meaningfully differs from those of Novemberpogrome-era (Krystalnacht-era) Nazi Germany?
They spoke German.
Well that… that… that changes everything!
Are we, ze baddies?
I have realized a while ago that there’s no point in arguing or discussing with genocide-deniers, pro-Israel and pro-zionists.
They will write the most delusional things, deny every evidence there’s and come up with the most delusional things to defend the Israeli-Government.
I think they’re delusional enough that there’s value in giving them the space to lay that delusion out for all to see. They’re one of the best arguments against themselves.
It’s all the work of Schrodinger’s terrorist sniper. He’s killed every Palestinian!
If you are asking for a devil’s advocate argument, we could start with the fact that the Jews weren’t exactly known for detaining, torturing, and mass executing their own.
That’s not the only time they’ve executed Palestinians for alleged “collaboration.”
You also have the fact that the Jews didn’t torture and kill hundreds of German civilians including women and infants to kick off a retaliation.
While I think Likud show a disguising disregard for civilian life and suspect a number of their party would like to carry out a one sided genocide, I also think the “it’s the same thing as the Holocaust” is a pretty gross statement.
It’s also probably prudent to not jump to conclusions in what’s actually taking place during the fog of war. I strongly suspect Israel is committing war crimes under the current administration, but I also remember the 2008 Goldstone report where they were accused of doing so after not participating in the process at all and then years later the person spearheading that inquiry said that had they known at the time the information they learned since, they would have had a different position towards the Israeli operations.
Time has a way of revealing a lot of details that are lost in the moment, there’s probably unprecedented propaganda on both sides of this conflict, and while we should err on the side of humanitarian concerns in directing foreign policy and negotiations, the process of investigating allegations is extremely important.
But to be frank, the knee jerk “this is identical to Nazi Germany killing the Jews” is ignorant as shit. You can’t just ignore the existence of Hamas and the fact it controls the region with its own war crimes (which, as has been the case for ISIS/ISIL and al-Queda, are often directed at their own dissidents with greater scope and violence than foreigners).
If you’re going to play devil’s advocate at least know the facts. There WERE Jewish militant groups that resisted the Nazis. The oppressed are justified to fight back.
Sorry you’ll have to remind me, did the Jews end up in the Warsaw ghetto because they tried to exterminate the German race?
Cause otherwise doesn’t really seem applicable to the current situation and such an ick comparison.
Are you suggesting Palestinians are trying to eradicate all Jews when they are undergoing an actual genocide from Israel?
It’s almost like both the Warsaw and Gaza uprisings were a reaction to occupation and murder.
Maybe I missed it in your link, but where’s the part about the Jews murdering women and children, such as burning infants alive?
Looking at the casualties, it seems their very limited relative body count were soldiers and police, often killed in action.
Or did you miss that specification in what I wrote?
Seems like 70 years is a long time to keep a group of people under a crushing grip of apartheid. Perhaps Palestinians watching their family members bulldozed, tortured, bombed, strapped to tanks would evoke something in people?
Also are you seriously talking about the AI infant propaganda that the White House had to walk back on after no evidence was presented? Why not play devils advocate for the people that have now lost over 11K children?
Also are you seriously talking about the AI infant propaganda that the White House had to walk back on after no evidence was presented?
You seem to be confusing the specific report of beheaded infants for which there was no presented evidence with the well documented reports of infants killed and burned.
There’s no dispute that infants were killed. Just whether their heads were removed from their bodies by a sharp object before they died.
Also, what the hell does it have to do with AI? You sound delusional adding that in.
Citation needed. Netanyahu claimed 40 Israeli infants were burned alive and or beheaded and then shared an AI generated image of a burned infant.
https://theintercept.com/2023/12/14/israel-biden-beheaded-babies-false/
There’s nothing about AI in that article.
Are you talking about the photo Ben Shapiro shared?
An image expert said that was real and the AI detection tools that flagged it are fake have high false positives (which they do):
But Hany Farid, a professor at UC Berkeley and an expert on digital image manipulation, says the photo is not fake.
https://interestingengineering.com/culture/expert-debunks-ai-tools-claim-that-israels-photo-is-fake,
Edit: More info about the expert cited from his Wikipedia page:
Farid specializes in image analysis and human perception. He has been called the “father” of digital image forensics by NOVA scienceNOW. He is the recipient of a 2006 Guggenheim Fellowship and a 2002 Sloan Fellowship for his work in the field.
Taking everything here as fact no person would deny it. But misinformation and agendas are everywhere.
Looking into the article:
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comment of one civilian (not named)
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witnesses decomposing bodies in an area of mass conflict
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potentially/probably bound and/or gagged
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assumed to be civilians
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instantly placed blame on one group they are heavily biased against
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blaming Israel is nearly half the article
No investigation on who they are, how they were killed, who killed them or collaborated from multiple sources. These could be innocent Palestine civilians, executed Israeli hostages, executed POW from either side, soldiers killed in conflict and dumped in one spot with torn clothes, soldiers tied up to transport easier.
Democracynow.org is a heavily left leaning publication (could be irrelevantbut not balanced), cant find anything on accuracy, owned by non profits. Not published by a well known and accurate source. Assigned blame on Israel without any investigation (this is the big red flag for me).
This is a very vague article, with little backing and authority behind it. If it is true, it should absolutely be investigated and considered as a crime against humanity - but this looks like a piece with poor reporting and a heavy agenda behind it.
And before anyone calls me a genocide denier - take a step back and look at who writes the articles you read and what their agenda is. This conflict has soo much propaganda from both sides and uninformed and uneducated opinions it horrendous. My list of what is missing is longer than the article.
Al Jazeera has more detailed eye witnesses statement’s and video about the mass grave found. Independent investigations are being called for but this is breaking news so that could take some time
Also reported on Common Dreams and Middle East Eye.
Thanks for the AJ link, genuinely. That as good as confirms it.
Christ, I’m speechless.
AJ confirms these people were found, and Palestine blames Israel.
It doesn’t confirm who did it or who they were, and saying investigation is needed.
Hamas is terrible as well, and this is why an investigation is necessary, but Occam’s Razor suggests it is likely the IDF. The IDF needs to show total transparency in a global investigation.
The first paragraph of the Al Jazeera article shows the biggest difference in the quality of reporting
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mass grave found
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calling for investigations
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Palestine authorities blame Israel.
This is the big concern I have about the original article - instantly called it executions of civilians, Israel did it. AL stated the facts, and you said it yourself - breaking news and investigation takes time, so why is it ok to scream genocide and Israeli did it? I can guarantee you Democracynow won’t release a massive recant of its statenents and apologize if it was wrong - it just put out the fastest article it could that stired up the most anger.
I got downvoted to shit because because I believe in waiting for the evidence and can see there is a clear bias in the article.
First article discusses a killing of 11 civilians, and other isolated events. Each individual one absolutely needs to be investigated and those responsible held to account but its not genocide.
Second discusses the effects on the elderly population and how nearly 1% of those over 60 have been killed - most killed by rubble. Again, not genocide. It sucks but civilians do die in war - those that were killed in cold blood do need justice however.
Third one discusses the changes in human rights over the last year (actually a really good read), how war crimes have been committed by both sides. Mentions numerous crimes against civilians, including events of executions. Like the first - those should be held to account but its not genocide… or if it is its a pretty crap attempt.
Is there precident that Israel could have done this - yes.
Is there also precident that Hamas could have done this - yes.
Thanks for the links by the way - pretty accurate and unbiased reporting. They are discussing that there are human rights violations happening from both side in this conflict, and hopefully international pressures will bring those responsible to account - but its not genocide. Happy to change mind as new evidence comes to account.
Those articles all show execution style killings Israel has done in this war, reported by human rights orgs. Hamas has done public executions before 2015/2007 and 2022 which while equally abhorrent isn’t quite the same as Israel has been doing to Palestinians. So I don’t think they are equally likely, to me it seems Israel is a lot more likely due to the circumstances here.
But I am grateful that you are willing to discuss in a civil manner and interested in credible sources. That’s not as common as it should be, insults and sourceless claims should be left to reddit imo lol.
As for genocide, the ICJ case is very detailed. I’ll link what I have found here:
ICJ Ruling archived here
Experts on Genocide at US Court on the issue
800+ Legal Scholars on International Law and Genocide on whether it amounts to genocide
Law for Palestine Releases Database with 500+ Instances of Israeli Incitement to Genocide
GDF has a pretty good video on it imo
Also linking this Foreign Affairs article which is quite good on the topic of a one state solution archived here
Looking forward to it
(Shit that sounds morbid out of content)
Amy Goodman, who runs democracy now considers herself anti-imperialist.
If a terrorist organization is losing a war they started, she’s the first in line to repost a half-true interpretation of Al Jazeera reporting (which already is only ever half true at best due to the fact that it is rightwing propaganda marketed to college leftists).
It’s insane how infested Lemmy is with anti-Western shills stirring the pot against the West in any way they can. My fiancee is Jewish but I’m not religious so we have debates/arguments about the war, but it’s clear here that any comment not “Israel is literally Satan” is downvoted to hell.
Don’t get me wrong it was bad on Reddit but Lemmy is on another level.
That’s a problem with decentralization that needs to be solved because at the moment the only tools to deal with any of the tens or hundreds of Lemmy instances plagued by propaganda is to defederate them (on the Admin side) or block each individual user/server/sub (on the User side).
At least with centralized services you can detect and (shadow)ban obvious bot activity quite easily. As far as I know of Lemmy infrastructure, your IP/User-Agent/other identifying metadata only goes as far as the server you’re registered to.
Running a popular Lemmy server is probably a nice way to collect some juicy 0days from governments though, if you have the skillset.
What does yours and your fiance’s religious differences have to do with it? Many Jewish people think the Israeli state is violent and illegitimate. There maybe some shills here, but is it possible that there are just more users aware of the history than you are used to? A lot of users are here because they don’t buy into the Western propaganda that inundates Reddit and most English media, not that we are anti-west shills. There are many perspectives in the world outside of the US and western countries, millions of people are in agreement in their desire for Palestinian freedom and the end of Israeli state genocide.
Turns out committing genocide isn’t a popular position. Who knew?
I was talking with a poster a few days ago - apparently the mods of .world are heavily anti Israeli and approve and block based on their own viewpoints and standing. Mass bot account to vote are permitted, complaints against them are ignored. This one isn’t actually too bad - im downvoted to shit but the comments back have been honest and clear discussion with facts which is a nice change.
I don’t know if I’d call it anti western - I have no doubt there are Russian and Chinese bot factories here - but there is absolutely a push to certain agendas. Can’t comment on federation as I don’t look at that side of lemmy.
I said this one a few days ago - if we want this to be a place of facts and truth we need to be pushing back against poor reporting. The downvotes will come, but the more comments pushing evidence and calling out inaccuracies the better.
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Democracy Now have a left-wing bias, but are a factual source. . That said, I’m not here to defend them - nor do I have much interest in this particular article or event.
I was asking about the broader situation, action, policy and rhetoric. My views are based more on the history of the situation, the casualty counts, reporting from the likes of AP and Reuters, UN oversight, and significantly, the words of the Israeli leadership themselves. If nothing else, when a political leader tells you they want to exterminate a group they’ve been keeping in brutal conditions, then kills tens of thousands of them, I tend to believe them.
I’m not going to call you a genocide denier, but I will ask you - are you denying the genocide, and if so, on what grounds. If you have any thoughts on the differentiation from the Nazis of that era, I’d like to hear those too.
By this point honestly I don’t know. The quality of information that gets to the public, the bias and propaganda from both sides, even the mass bot account in lemmy.world that downvote everything not anti Israeli tells me there is alot of information missing.
Are we looking at individuals actions, groups of people, or a systematic process? The amount of suppressed information and incorrect reporting makes the latter appear to be all there is, but the reality is somewhere in the range.
Could it be a genocide - yes. Are there massive questions that need to be asked - absolutely. Have both sides committed crimes against humanity - very likely. Is it enough for media to be screaming genocide, make a biased article to inflame the masses without checking the facts - no.
What definition of genocide are you using? There’s no way to credibly dispute the fact that Israel’s actions comfortably meet both the UN and dictionary definitions.
Do you have any thoughts on my question about the meaningful differentiation between Novemberpogrome-era Nazi Germany and modern Israel?
UN definition
- proven attempt to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racist or religious group.
The key difference being we are seeing incidents of killing of civilians - either in conflict (expected) or execution (not expectedin conflict). What we aren’t seeing is a focused attempt at destroying the entire group - 10 here, mostly men, building destroyed there - or clear instructions to destroy the group. Quality reporting is showing individual incidents, mass propaganda and biased articles are calling it genocide.
No sorry, I cant comment on the difference as that wasn’t my area of study - mine was surface level Syria, Ukraine, Rwanda and War crime definitions, causes and responses. Id be limited to what the other poster said - one spoke German.
Here’s the full UN definition:
A mental element: the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"; and A physical element, which includes the following five acts, enumerated exhaustively: Killing members of the group Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group Forcibly transferring children of the group to another groupA major portion of the Palestinian territory has been flattened, and supplies to rebuild have been blocked, people can’t return, and are kept in concentration camp conditions. Israel have killed more civilians than the total number of Hamas members in existence, and are showing no signs of “progress” - let alone slowing down. There’s also the small fact that they funded the rise of Hamas over the secular moderates - seemingly to create the pretext for the genocide they’re now committing. Tens of thousands of dead isn’t isolated incidents - particularly when they’re just stating their genocidal intent. Here’s some relevant quotes… I can provide admission that they were funding Hamas too if you’d like.
Prime Minister Netanyahu
They (Israel/IDF) are committed to completely eliminating this evil from the world,”
and
You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember.
and
I don’t call them human animals because that would be insulting to animals
“Defence” minister Galant
We are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly
Kallner…
Nakba to the enemy now! This day is our Pearl Harbour. We will still learn the lessons. Right now, one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of 48. A Nakba in Gaza and a Nakba for anyone who dares to join!
Atbaryan…
erasing all of Gaza from the face of the Earth. Gaza needs to be wiped out.
Halevi…
goals for this victory. One, there is no more Muslim land in the land of Israel. After we make it the land of Israel, Gaza should be left as a monument, like Sodom.”
If someone tells you they want to commit a genocide before killing tens of thousands of civilians in a few months while subjugating the entire population they’ve said they want to exterminate, I think it’s safe to believe them.
Here’s the thing about calling us deniers:
The claim that Jews are attempting extermination and are being helped by the globalist liberals is the oldest conspiracy theory on earth. It keeps popping up somewhere every 20 or so years, in some rightwing shithole nation, and it’s never true. It’s solely a justification to begin a campaign of antisemitic policies and violence.
Why should we believe the anti-Semites are telling the truth now?
Not that you are anti-Semitic yourself, but everybody else who previously made this claim was. How can we trust that you are different and telling the truth this time?
Israel != Jews. Lots of Jews are calling out Israel for, to all outward appearances, committing genocide. One of Israelis own judges on the recent IJC hearing with South Africa concurred with South Africa on two points IIRC. Not to mention that Israel failed to make their case completely. So there’s that.
Why is it that the people making the accusations of genocide don’t like it when it is pointed out that the people they are specifically accusing the children and grandchildren of Holocaust survivors?
You may be refusing to use the word Jew, you may be talking only of specific Jews (in truth the majority of Israeli/American Jews, who are the majority of Jews worldwide, but I digress), and you may refuse to bear mention of their relation to genocide themselvea, but this is what you mean, clearly, unless you can decontextualize the Israeli government from the people of Israel, as if it is something placed on them and not of them. You aren’t able to do that, I suspect.
I don’t mind it being pointed out. It’s especially damning because of that. You would think that they had learned better. But as is often the problem with humankind. We don’t ever really learn. We just retaliate when given the chance.
When I say Israel that means government. When I say Israeli people. That means Israeli people. Like when people say America. Typically means American government. When they say American people. That typically means the American people. Is that clear? Hopefully that clears it up.
And to be 1000% clear. It is the Israeli government, specifically likud In the knesset that are the problem. Plenty of the Israeli people are aghast at their own government’s actions.
Sure, plenty of people in Israel are aghast at their government’s actions, but they aren’t claiming genocide like you are.
So.again, we are dealing with you using Jews as a prop who can be trusted when they agree with you but but can’t when they disagree with you.
How is this not antisemitism in your mind?
As for your ICJ argument, did the Israeli judge concur genocide was taking place?
If so? It’s pretty disingenous to argue that Israeli officials can be trusted when they agree with you, but can’t when they disagree with you.
It doesn’t matter that they agree with me. The panel as a whole decided that it was likely genocide was taking place. It’s just especially damning when those from the home team have to reluctantly concur on a number of points.
It did not decide that it was likely. The wording is very specific and deliberate: The preliminary ruling states that “at least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the Convention”. Notice how careful the wording is: “At least some”, “alleged”, “appear to be capable of falling within” - this kind of wording is being used to express a great deal of uncertainty.
Please shoe me a quotation from the panel where they state that this is “likely genocide.”
Is that your interpretation or the direct wording?
Because there’s physical evidence. It’s one thing when it’s a conspiracy theory about a world government. It’s something else entirely when the IDF repeatedly kills unarmed people in the open with nothing else going on. It’s another thing entirely when they’re forcing Gazans to eat grass because they won’t allow them actual food.
It’s another thing entirely when it’s the government of Israel being protested and not some nebulous concept of Judaism.
Physical evidence is presented to a court and tried, it isn’t decontextualized videos on tiktok and news reports from the Qatar state’s english propaganda directed at leftists.
Do you understand the difference?
It isn’t blanket denials from the IDF when Reuters breaks it down with hard evidence, satellite photography, and eyewitness accounts from western Journalists.
You can try to discredit the accounts all you want but I’ve been in a war zone. I know what it’s supposed to look like and this ain’t it.
Please link me to Reuters accusing Israel of genocide and the evidence they are using.
I’m still waiting for that link, FYI.
Why not just take the Israeli leadership at their word and compare their actions to either the UN or dictionary definition of genocide? It’s pretty straightforward.
I don’t deny that a genocide was attempted on 10/7. I also believe that Israel has the right to ensure it’s security, especially if the Palestinian public refuses to do so themselves. You might say “But Palestinians have no responsibility to do so” and you’d be wrong. 80 years of terrorism against the Israeli people means that Palestinians have a responsibility to stop the violence.
Until they do, Israel must take actions to defend itself. If you have suggestions for how this should be done, I’m all ears.
Are Palestinians entitled to defend themselves?
Are Jews?
Of course, but this isn’t that. This is about stealing more land and ethnically cleansing it to make way for settlers. You aren’t doing self defense on stolen land.
No, the war started on Oct. 7th. The war is in response to terrorism on the part of Hamas.
You’re just pulling a DARVO here.
Is this defending themselves?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
Yeah, that’s a list of Palestinians attacking invaders/colonizers in Palestine. Palestinians defending themselves in Palestine is unambiguously self defense. The tactics aren’t preferable, but I’m in no position to tell any person suffering under a brutal occupation that their fight for self determination is in some way invalid.
Cool, you say that Israel is colonizers and Palestine is defending themselves.
I’ll say that Gazans are terrorists and Israel is ensuring it’s security. Israelis defending themselves after an invasion of their country is unambiguously self-defense. Their tactics aren’t preferable, but I’m in no position to tell someone who is under attack how to defend themselves.
Unfortunately none of this solves problems for actual civilians in the conflict.
Here’s the problem… For the past several decades or so, Israel has blockaded Gaza and the West Bank from getting any kind of support from the outside.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
They don’t have the material or the personnel to do ANYTHING about the violence being enacted against the Israelis and that’s BY THE DESIGN of the Israelis.
So what do you expect the Palestinians to do? Israeli policies have been crushing them for decades, they don’t have the capacity to throw out Hamas because Israel actively prevents them from having the capacity. Sooo? Obtain weapons illegally? Now in the eyes of Israel they ARE Hamas and they get attacked too.
It gets even worse, because it means they don’t have great access to information either.
There was a video soon after Oct 7 that showed Palestinians celebrating in the streets. They hadn’t been told about the civilian deaths or kidnappings though, only that a prison had been liberated. And that context wasn’t shown alongside their celebrations when Israelis saw it.
The suppression of information has led to misunderstandings that perpetuate the hate and the war. Just as Netanyahu wants, I suspect.
Except Gaza shares a border with Egypt that Israel was not controlling before the Oct. 7 war and I’m not sure if they are controlling it now.
Israel is preventing Palestinians from overthrowing Hamas? Why would that be true and what evidence of that claim do you have?
You can’t defend people and strip them of all agency at the same time.
Israel blocks all materials that the Palestinians would need to throw out Hamas and they have been doing that for decades.
So, again, what do you expect the Palestinians to do?
So to the best of your knowledge, there has not been a single uprising attempt against Hamas, and the Jews in Israel are to blame?
Wow.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
Israel fully withdrew from Gaza and displaced Israelis that had been living in Gaza since the 1940s because of two decades of terror bombings of busses in Israel.
I vehemently oppose the use of violence to achieve political goals in all forms.
I would suggest educating yourself on this conflict and the historical reasons for the state of the conflict today.
Nobody cares what happened in the 1940s, we’re talking about the abuses heaped on Gaza within living memory.
Unfortunate to not care about Israeli civilians being displaced, how am I supposed to care about Palestinians being displaced then?
You got your sides mixed up, it’s been 80 years of terrorism, subjugation, blockades, land grabs, against the Palestinian people, and the Palestinians have a right to ensure their security. Have you considered why Israel needs to ‘defend itself’? Why do you think Palestinian people have been fighting for 80 years?
TL:DR: Israel isn’t defending itself by committing a genocide against a population they’ve subjugated.
There are a series of issues with this…
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Genocide isn’t an act of defence - it’s an attempt to completely exterminate a group of people, and is the greatest act of aggression a group could possibly commit.
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The response we’re seeing is in no way proportionate, and causing a completely unacceptable level of civilian casualties (10k+ children alone in response to 1,200 total killed according to Israeli counts).
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Israel have killed more Palestinians than the total number of Hamas members in existence with zero indication of progress, and no sign of stopping.
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Israel have maintained Palestine in conditions described by the UN as an open air concentration camp, and have placed severe apartheid restrictions on Palestinians for years.
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Israel have killed orders of magnitude more Palestinians than Hamas have killed Israelis.
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Israel funded the rise of Hamas (who were no less violent then) over the secular moderates - as confirmed by both IDF leadership at the time she Arafat. I see no reason for them to do this other than to manufacture pretext for the genocide while maintaining US support.
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Palestinians seem to have a lot more to “defend themselves” against - between the numbers killed and displaced and the very restrictive living conditions they’re subjected to.
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Israeli leadership have said pretty plainly and repeatedly that they intend to exterminate Palestinians - if all Palestinians were to lay down arms and submit to the apartheid conditions, movement restrictions, and conditions we’ve seen over the past decade, the well funded nuclear power with modern military simply won’t stop.
What makes Israel’s actions self-defence while Hamas’s lesser actions are not?
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No legitimate person is accusing Israel of extermination. My impression is most of you are accusing Israel of “cultural genocide” and not actual extermination. Am I wrong on that?
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A disproprortionate response in war is not in the definition of genocide. Is your argument that Israel is committing war crimes or that they are specifically doing genocide, and are you aware that there is a legal difference?
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How do you define progress when fighting a terrorist cell? Are you using the same rubric that the IDF is or are you defining progress differently? This point feels like it weakens your argument.
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I would need to see the direct quote you reference. And seeing that Israel left Gaza in 2005, apartheid is a dishonest word to use in reference here. West Bank, sure, but I believe the argument made is that Israelis are genociding Gaza’s, not those currently in.the West Bank. If the rhetoric has changed, please inform me.
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Point 5 is just point 2 repeated. Please reference that.
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Hamas began as a human rights charity. Can you establish that Israel paid Hamas to attack Israel or is that conjecture? Are you also claiming that it’s the Israeli’s who support Hamas and not the Palestinian people? If so, doesn’t it make sense for the Palestinians to turn over the Israeli sleeper agents who govern them to the international courts as evidence of genocide? As we can see, this point, if what you are trying to make, is easily disproven by the fact that the Palestinians are not bringing down Hamas themselves.
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Having a lot to work against doesn’t make you the victim of genocide. This point brings nothing to your argumentt.
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Please provide the direct quotations, not reporting of the quotations. This point you might be correct on, but the ones I have seen were grossly mistranslated and the correct translations were clearly in reference to Hamas fighters, not all Palestinians.
I didn’t write this to attack, but because I think your post deserved a response instead of possibly getting lost.
I disagree with point 2, or maybe it needs to be clarified?
A disproportionate response is a war crime (not genocide) but deaths each side isn’t the measure of proportionality - neither is strength, tech, economic strength.
Proportionality is using only as much force as necessary to eliminate the threat and minimize civilian casualties. I haven’t seen the intel reports of the attacks on civilian structures that hamas are using, but proportional response does need to be called into question.
I think everybody is willing to have a conversation on the imbalance of power and whether Israel can show more restraint.
The people screaming genocide aren’t allowing us to have that conversation unless it is on their terms.
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I would call this genocide:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
I’m sure you’d call Hamas’s actions a genocide, but based on what definition or metric?
No differences between Israel and the Nazis?
No difference between Israel’s self-defence and Hamas’s attacks?
Godwin’s law states that you have lost the argument/credibility.
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First nuanced take. Heavily downvoted. Pretty telling where a lot of pro Palestinian supporters are coming from.
Thank you for this. I noticed that there are no photos or other material that show any of the restraints, just the closed body bags with Hebrew tags. You would think that they would immediately photograph or film such restraints, but for some reason, they did not and they are only mentioned in the article text in both this article and the Al Jazeera source. The article on Al Jazeera’s website, which includes a video overlayed with ominous music (not something a reputable outlet would do), includes the lie that the men stripped and restrained for processing a while ago were out in the cold, even though one could easily access weather data for Gaza that showed it wasn’t cold at all at the time.
From a logical perspective, it would make no sense for Israel to leave the bodies behind with restraints, whereas burying bodies they come across is perfectly reasonable for the purposes of preventing disease. If the goal of this burial had been to hide executions or a massacre, then they wouldn’t have tagged them, which would place the blame entirely on them.
The most reasonable explanation, in absence of more concrete evidence, is that these are either civilians found in the rubble or killed in the crossfire - or Hamas fighters who died in combat. They could also be people killed by Hamas (who just murdered a pro-peace activist after abducting and torturing him). I think what happened here is that IDF cleanup crews buried these people, likely without identifying them beyond checking if any hostages are among them, and now returning Palestinians are exhuming the bodies again in order to find missing relatives.
I also have a really hard time believing random unnamed eyewitness reports of mass executions. Given the enormous prevalence of smartphones and their extensive use to document this conflict, one would expect that an act this significant, this unquestionably monstrous would be filmed. It would be the single greatest rallying cry for the Palestinian cause imaginable. Watch any video of the aftermath of a bombing raid in Gaza and you see more people with cameras than people trying to help the wounded. If a random Belgian with a bulky camera can secretly film executions of civilians by German forces during WW1, then surely so can Gazans with much more readily available, much more concealable smartphones.
Al Jazeera is the Qatari government, meaning their funded by the same people Hamas is.
Anybody using the government propaganda wing of terrorists as reputable information is a fucking idiot.
There comes a time when you realize putting in the work to be logical and consistent means nothing to fanatics. They either have no idea what words mean, or they don’t care, so keeping it short is just as good.
They don’t care that making incredulous claims destroys their credibility. It’s basically the Trump tactic of inundation the headlines with bullsht hoping something sticks.
So it’ll be easy for you to draw meaningful distinctions between current Israel and Novemberpogrome-era Nazi Germany, right?
Wut
I’m inviting you to respond to the topic of the thread you responded to.
A Nazi is a nazi; an Israeli is not a nazi. I don’t think they are currently equivalent. There are undoubtedly horrible ones, though. I watched a PBS report on an old Israeli woman who has made it her mission in life to force Palestinians out of Gaza. She is bats*ht crazy.
You don’t understand what a comparison is, do you? If you’re comparing 2 things, they’re definitionally not the same single thing - I asked for meaningful differences between the two.
If there’s no meaningful difference, I think it would be sensible to respond as though they’re dealing with the rise of the Nazis.
Some similarities - they’re far-right authoritarians that have pivoted their leadership around the creation and subjugation of a ethno-religious “other”, while spouting openly genocidal rhetoric, and beginning the early steps of the genocide they’ve laid the plans for. They’re hostile to their neighbours, and will undoubtedly move on to annexing them given the opportunity once the Palestinian annexation is complete.
Some differences would be that Israel is less homophobic than the Nazis were at that point, and that Israel established an apartheid state and (open air) concentration camp as a preparatory step, which the Nazis didn’t. Israel also funded Hamas’s rise to power over the secular moderates to manufacture pretext, which I didn’t see from the Nazis (who had less need, as they were less reliant on external support) - I’d argue all that makes Israel worse on balance.
Feel free to take another run at it if you like.
You’re right, but it means the world to others who understand.
That’s true, unless of course the bots manage to downvote you to oblivion. Thankfully there aren’t enough posts on Lemmy to do that just yet.
People disagreeing doesn’t mean they are bots automatically, posts defending the IDF get downvoted because there is more than ample evidence of the IDF committing some of the worst atrocities I’ve seen in my life, and they have been doing it for years.
There is a slightly more global perspective here than Reddit so it’s less common that there will be echo chambers supporting Western propaganda. People falling for Israeli propaganda today haven’t been paying attention, or they agree with Israels goal of eliminating Palestine. Anyone that has been looking into the situation for longer than a few years has seen every line, every spin, every rationalization Israel can make.
Bots are for downvotes.
Yeah bots can downvote, I’m saying it’s easy to say something was downvoted because of bots, there is no way to prove it right or wrong. It’s also very possible that many actual people disagree with the comment.
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Some of the victims were blindfolded with their hands tied behind their backs with zip ties.
There were witness statements of mass executions committed by the IDF 2 weeks ago, now actual evidence is found and being shown.
With how often we spar, I feel it’s worth mentioning that I fully agree with you here. There’s enough substantial evidence. This is horrific.
Between this and the IDF disguising itself as civilians and doctors to kill targets in a hospital, it’s fairly clear that the organization needs to completely disband as part of any peace agreement.
Looked into the presenter of this video (Middle East Eye)
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heavy Palestine bias
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owners not known
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0 Israeli perspective
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(edit after chatting with poster - two week old video edited for this event)
I’ve gone through the last 8 hours of Al Jazeera links - no mention of this article. The review from the last 24 hours does not mention this link. Do you have an Al Jazeera, BBC, or AP link to this video, because right now it looks fabricated with the AJ logo.
The AJ link you posted is a great article- bodies found, likely bound and executed, investigating ongoing, Palestine blames Israel.
I checked and it seems like they reposed a 2 weeks old AJ video cutting out some of their footage.
So it’s less recent than I thought, but still relevant. First witness statements of mass IDF executions were ~2 months ago iirc (don’t quote me on that I might be 2 weeks off)
Mee is a respectable news source. One sided for sure but they’re not making stuff up.
Israel doesn’t get covered much on the Arab side, they’re afraid to quote lies from the IDF and tarnish their reputation of factually being factual. Unlike mostly western propaganda outlets like NYT which will happily verbatim quote every lie the IDF tells them even when it’s already debunked. 40 beheaded hospital tunnels. You know the drill.
Can I ask you to update your original comment saying this video was made before this article came out, related to a different event at an unknown time, and has been edited?
I don’t know the name of the logical mistake, but saying they don’t report Israel lies is a falicy. They don’t need to state this is true, they need to factually state this is the viewpoint of the Israeli government, this is their response to this attack. Its not their job to tell us who is right and not, its their job to state both sides of the arguements and report on facts.
Sure edited my comment.
Does israel broadcast every statement Hamas makes?
Nope - accurate reporting does. Like I wouldn’t trust hamas to comment on Israel - its the point of independent journalism to give both sides, not take sides.
The thing I’ve learned most over this conflict is how much of a godsend BBC is - ban emotive language, report both sides, only send out evidence that is backed.
Thanks for the update as well. I’m trying to not take sides but can only do it when information is out there.
I’m sorry my dude but BBC is horrible propaganda. BBC called a Pro Palestine protest a “Pro Hamas rally”.
If you’re getting your news from BBC you’re going to need to get up to date with some actual facts. Luckily Middle East Eye got you ;)
God, Middle East Eye is worse - they actively provide a biased arguement and have provided 0 Israel viewpoint and refuse to discuss who owns it. Their reviews discuss how they use manipulative language to push viewpoints and pass over any information counter to their agenda.
Had a look at the clip (well, first minute). Does this sound like a balanced view point to you.
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YouTuber
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listed outrage and disgusted before showing the clip i.e told you how to react
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mentioned issues with screen recording from BBC (nothing to do with the the clip, just there so you already question them)
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was already at an rally with this viewpoint before the information came up.
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completely loaded with emotive words and reactions
Vs BBC clip
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names, places
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fact (visited, rally, support, Hamas designated terrorist organization)
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clear, non emotive language.
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the only issue is calling it pro Hamas, which is an understandable conclusion as Hamas is the Palestine government. Who is responsiblefor the welfare of Palestine citizens - their government. Its no different than calling supporting American military ops pro-Biden.
If you go up to my eairler comment MEE is horrific fir accuracy and bias
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The country genociding people have to make mass graves from executing civilians? Say it ain’t so.
Store all this data to tell accurate histories.
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The Jews are not the problem. The Israeli defence force and their leaders is.
This is a very impressive point. Not all Jews are related to Isreal’s efforts to replace the native population. In fact we have some Lemmy users I recognize as frequent posters who are both Jewish and not anti-Palestinian.
Edit: Meant important, not impressive.
STFU
Fuck off, nothing ever excuses genocide, nor antisemitism
When people try to tell you conservatives (including neoliberals) aren’t that bad, just point to this genocide.
Israel is committing genocide it’s plain to see and the world watches on…
We’re just innocent men.
Governments need to take action. This is what we pay them to do. The problem is that daddy USA picked sides and everyone is too afraid to damage their relations with them.
At least Biden is starting to use his push back of Israel as his campaign strategy. "No Israel, stop, don’t do it… do they like me now? OK good. Israel, proceed. "
A lot of this really mirroring the Bosnian genocide which was only 25 years ago
Mirroring the f*cking holocaust
It’s sad, it’s an atrocity, it’s unsurprising.
The fact this is still news in 2024 is beyond stupid.
This has been going on for almost 70yrs, it’s just that they have now acknowledged and embraced it as well
Netanyahu wasin dire straights when this kicked off. War is good for those in power, shit is extremely reminiscent to Bush’s position before 9/11. Of course it’s being embraced.
He is in far worse straits right now:
Legitimatlly surprised that number is so low. I know it was much higher back at the end of October.
It wasn’t. Only 18% wanted him to continue after the war at the beginning of November:
Ah I was getting my numbers mixed. There was huge support for a ground invasion of Gaza, but Netanyahu’s numbers remained low.
Right? No human could possibly find genocide to be abhorrent - it must be the bots.
This is no longer shocking.
Weren’t Jews kinda murderous in their own ancient fairy tales from the bible as well?
This isn’t about Jewish people or the Jewish faith. This is about Zionism and settler colonialism
Exactly, the issue isn’t thousands of years old. The Zionists started this shit in the late 1800s, when they realized they wanted a place for the Jewish people and decided on Palestine. They have been systematically destroying the Palestinian history and culture ever since. The latest destruction of schools and mosques is just another attempt to erase the past to make Palestinians look like they don’t belong there and should be absorbed into the neighboring Arab countries.
Jews lived along side Arabs in Palestine and the other Arab countries. It was the Zionists deciding that they wanted a majority Jewish ethnostate and Arabs had to go to make it possible.
The Jews follow the Torah, not the Bible…
The Torah is part of the Bible. The semantic is not necessary. Also even Jews use term Bible or Jewish Bible when speaking about it too sometimes, including well-respected Jewish theologians.
Most people know the Bible–or rather the Old Testament–is the Tanakh, usually with a reordering of scrolls.
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Get this antisemitic bullshit out of here. The state of Israel doesn’t even represent all Israelis, and not remotely all Jewish people. There have been prominent Jewish people that have been anti-zionist all the way back since the 1920s to present day
Very well said.
You see a genocide, chastise the people committing it, then go on to fully support some OTHER genocide as not being good enough, because of the genocide? In a single post you’ve demonstrated that you’re no better than any of the groups of people you’re referring to within it. That’s some real batshit drivel there, my fellow human. You should get that checked out.
