When do we get the next one?

  • Claidheamh
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    10 months ago

    You need a baseline for a stable power grid, which renewables alone can’t provide.

      • WetBeardHairs@lemmy.ml
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        10 months ago

        It is also the first Gen III+ reactor in North America. Usually new technology has some growing pains.

        • boonhet@lemm.ee
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          10 months ago

          I think most NPPs run billions and at least a decade over budget at this point.

          I suppose it’s easier to sell the population on a smaller cost to the taxpayer, and then pay more anyway.

        • lemming741@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          It was sold as being modular, with lots of fabrication happening off site. That didn’t come to fruition. It was also not too far removed from nukegate in South Carolina.

    • johnhowson@mastodon.social
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      10 months ago

      @Claidheamh @ndsvw
      It depends on the renewables. Wind and photovoltaics have stability issues. Hydro and geothermal are more stable. Nuclear is compact and high power but has huge waste disposal issues.

      • Claidheamh
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        10 months ago

        The waste disposal is a solvable issue, that is still less nefarious than fossil fuel emissions. If you set the goal to replace ALL fossil fuel power generation, then nuclear is a necessary component of a renewable energy based grid. Geothermal and hydro are great and necessary, but can’t provide a reliable base load for the entire grid. Nuclear plants are complemental to renewables, not competition.

          • Claidheamh
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            10 months ago

            What’s the problem with how the waste is managed right now?

              • PowerCrazy@lemmy.ml
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                10 months ago

                You don’t need to plan “1000’s of years into the future.” Why does Nuclear require a multi-generational plan on a scale that no civilization has ever attained, but burning fossil fuels which will kill most of us within a few generations doesn’t? It’s a distraction, the solution to nuclear waste was solved in the 50’s and the reality is that dangerous nuclear waste is useful and should be recycled, and the low-order nuclear waste isn’t dangerous for anymore then a century at most, and even then it’s only if you consume it.

                  • Claidheamh
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                    10 months ago

                    10.500 tons of highly radioactive waste until 2080

                    Ok, but in 2022 alone Germany emitted 746 000 000 tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere. I’ll take the 10.500 of easily containable waste over 60 years, please. In fact, let’s do 5x that. Or even 10x.

                  • PowerCrazy@lemmy.ml
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                    10 months ago

                    It’s called nuclear reprocessing and it was banned as a compromise between the USSR and the USA because it can also be used to make weapons. The USSR is gone now, and any country that wants to do it is more then welcome to withdraw from the nuclear reprocessing treaty. They can do it unilaterally without any risk at all and that takes care of their existing and future high-order nuclear waste in one fell-swoop.

        • johnhowson@mastodon.social
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          10 months ago

          @Claidheamh
          Nuclear is also very expensive. Bioenergy is the one I missed. That is far cheaper than nuclear and could be scaled up easily. I’m sure there will be a need for both the existing nuclear and indeed some fossil fuels for a while yet. But I think we should focus on getting our renewable energy resources in place in advance of building any new nuclear plants.

          • Claidheamh
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            10 months ago

            It may be expensive to build, but it’s much cheaper to run. Just compare France’s and Germany’s energy prices.

            Bioenergy is just more emissions we really can’t afford to put into the atmosphere. It’s basically just a fancy name for “burning wood”.

            • johnhowson@mastodon.social
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              10 months ago

              @Claidheamh straw too. Biofuels are in fact carbon neutral. But yes release CO2. Nuclear also produces CO2 mainly due to the mining, processing and transportation of the fuel. But far less than say coal or gas. The reality is that some new reactors are going to be built. But I believe the money would have been better invested in onshore wind.

              • Claidheamh
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                10 months ago

                >Biofuels are in fact carbon neutral.

                That’s what their marketing would like you to believe. But they’re only carbon neutral if you take into account the carbon being sequestered by the growth of plants before they’re burned. By that measure they’re just as carbon neutral as coal.

                > Nuclear also produces CO2 mainly due to the mining, processing and transportation of the fuel.

                That’s not nuclear that produces CO2, that’s mining, processing, and transportation. It’s transversal to anything you build, be it nuclear, bioenergy, wind, solar, hydro, geothermal, anything. In the ideal conditions of your power being entirely carbon-free, then so is all of that.

                • Umbrias@beehaw.org
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                  10 months ago

                  > By that measure they’re just as carbon neutral as coal.

                  Well no, because coal is deep deposits of carbon which have essentially left the carbon cycle. By digging it up and burning it we are adding carbon back which otherwise wasn’t already an issue. Biofuels by definition rely on the carbon currently in the carbon cycle so they do not have this issue.

                  • Claidheamh
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                    10 months ago

                    Sure, but the carbon in coal was captured from the atmosphere by plants previously (that’s what I meant by “by that measure”). Let’s just leave the carbon where it is, whether coal or plants, and not burn any more of it back into the atmosphere, please.

                • ebikefolder@feddit.de
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                  10 months ago

                  Wind, solar, geothermal etc. need constant mining of fuel?

                  They need one-time mining of construction material to build those things, and that’s it, for the next few decades.

                  • Claidheamh
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                    10 months ago

                    >and that’s it

                    Point is that’s just as big an “it” as the nuclear costs. Which, in a zero emissions world, is a very small “it”. I’m not arguing against renewables, I’m arguing against fossil fuels. We need to replace all of it ASAP, and realistically nuclear is the easiest, most reliable way to reach that goal. Just compare Germany and France’s emissions per capita, and then the distribution of their power source, and electricity costs.

          • lntl@lemmy.mlOP
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            10 months ago

            I don’t support any continued burning it fossil fuels. That’s what every previous generation said and look at the thermometer.

        • ebikefolder@feddit.de
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          10 months ago

          >The waste disposal is a solvable issue

          Strangely enough it hasn’t been solved in the almost 70 years of nuclear energy. And I doubt it will be solved in the next 70 years either.

          • subcytoplasm@l.tta.wtfB
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            10 months ago

            I think that depends on the definition of “solved”.

            In Finland, the Onkalo repository is being steadily built out (honestly, there might already be waste stored there, I haven’t checked in on that story in a while. I know there was some delay due to COVID).

            In the United States, there’s been a lot of the usual politicking about where to build something that doesn’t exactly sound appealing to have in one’s backyard. Nobody wants to be the senator who allowed the government to build a nuclear waste site in their state, no matter how safe the site actually is.

            This has led to the unfortunate situation where by law, the EPA is only allowed to consider a site in Nevada (because the other sites were in states represented by the Speaker of the House and President pro Tempore of the Senate), but because Nevada became an important state for Obama to become president, the site couldn’t/wouldn’t actually be built there and has been on hold pretty much ever since. My armchair understanding is that the Nevada site is probably one of the better places in the United States that you could store nuclear waste, but politics has ensured it will not be put there for a long, long time.

          • Claidheamh
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            10 months ago

            What do you prefer? A power plant where all the hazardous material it generates you throw out into the atmosphere, or one where you can capture all of it into a container and prevent it from going out into the environment?

            • ebikefolder@feddit.de
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              10 months ago

              Neither. I don’t buy the assumption that they are necessary. Renewables plus storage are very well capable of reliable supply.

              Edit: https://www.diw.de/de/diw_01.c.821878.de/publikationen/wochenberichte/2021_29_1/100_prozent_erneuerbare_energien_fuer_deutschland__koordinierte_ausbauplanung_notwendig.html (in German, published by the German Institute for Economic Research, an institution as unsuspicious of being “too green” as it gets)

              • Claidheamh
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                10 months ago

                > Renewables plus storage are very well capable of reliable supply.

                Don’t get me wrong, they are capable of a much larger percentage of supply than they currently provide, but to handle the predictable periods of peak demand on the grid, it would be incredibly inefficient to rely only on renewables plus storage. It’s not the most environmentally friendly solution for that.

                Do you have an english translation for the link in the edit btw?

                >an institution as unsuspicious of being “too green” as it gets

                Being too green is not the problem. The problem is not being green enough…

                • ebikefolder@feddit.de
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                  10 months ago

                  Do you have an english translation for the link in the edit btw?

                  Unfortunately, no. Most of the site lets you choose English, but for this specific article you’d need Google translate, or deepl, or whatever else.

          • Umbrias@beehaw.org
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            10 months ago

            What do you mean hasn’t been solved? Nuclear waste is being processed and stored constantly and with high safety. Not to mention reprocessing which could be done if not for being outlawed.

            • ebikefolder@feddit.de
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              10 months ago

              The only permanent storage for high level waste is currently being built in Finland, if I’m not mistaken. Germany thought they had found one, but they have to retrieve all waste because of leaks. Back to square one.

              All we have up to now is temporary surface storage.

              • Umbrias@beehaw.org
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                10 months ago

                There is deep salt vein storage here in the us actively being used as we speak.

              • Umbrias@beehaw.org
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                10 months ago

                The pyramids weren’t buried 1km under the surface in flowing salt which will further engulf the waste for geologic time scales.

                Also we didn’t forget about the pyramids. What does that even mean? People have lived right next to them since they were built.

                  • Umbrias@beehaw.org
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                    10 months ago

                    Yes there are archaeological sites which have been forgotten and rediscovered.

                    Nothing you’re saying is a strong argument about self sealing deep storage waste burial sites. I don’t think you realize just how little waste nuclear reactors produce, they’re not pyramids, they’re a few barrels across years.

          • lntl@lemmy.mlOP
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            10 months ago

            It has, it’s just illegal to do in the US. France has been doing it since the 60s.

          • EddoWagt@feddit.nl
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            10 months ago

            >but you could still replace that with reneawables as long as you have enough electricity left at night when there is no wind.

            That would require storing all that energy, which isn’t feasible right now and realistically not anytime soon unless we get some kind of battery breakthrough (Still waiting on those solid-state and graphene batteries)

            • egonallanon@lemm.ee
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              10 months ago

              I wonder why we haven’t been looking into mechanical flywheels more ofr the energy storage. They’re far less energy dense sure but their service life blow batteries out of the water long term and when you’re building static grid scale storage space isn’t really a concern.

              • EddoWagt@feddit.nl
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                10 months ago

                We have those, that’s pretty much how big energy plants work (Coal, gas and fusion all use that I think), it’s not exactly a flywheel, but a large turbine which can keep spinning for some time. I think a full on flywheel would have to be absolutely massive to produce enough energy to be meaningful, which is probably just not worth it