Die exportorientierte deutsche Wirtschaft leidet besonders unter den hohen Energiepreisen. Industrievertreter fürchten, dass zahlreiche Unternehmen abwandern. Die Politik müsse gegensteuern – sonst bewege sich Deutschland „ungebremst auf einen gefährlichen Wendepunkt zu“.
Again you blatantly fail to understand EU politics, this is just a roundabout way of how the French complain about Germany unilaterally subsidizing their industry and buying fighter jets from the US instead from France.
Again, you blatantly misrepresent what’s happening which is that EU countries are now realizing that US is creating subsidies which makes it hard for European industries to compete. Both France and Germany are scrambling to come up with some kind of a response.
There is currently a global economic down-turn caused by many factors, one more minor being the stop of cheap energy exports from Russia to central Europe.
The amount of dishonesty it takes to claim that the stop of cheap energy from Russia i a minor factor is frankly astronomical. Meanwhile, the whole global economic downturn is largely rooted in the economic war between the west and Russia.
In this negative economic environment, companies that have unsustainable and outdated business models are going to fail, and that is what this entire fuss is about. This is a long overdue market correction that is IMHO good and will result in a stronger economy in Europe in the medium term.
I’m assuming that you’re calling industry and manufacturing outdated business models here. The entire fuss is about the fact that lack of cheap energy means that costs of production in Europe are far higher than places like China or even US. Since we live in a global economy, European companies are directly competing against companies in other countries that have access to cheap energy. I hope that clears things up for you.
And yes, I stand by my point that this is a right-wing talking point and “Die Linke” has been recently fishing for right-wing votes as everyone in Germany knows. You show your total lack of understanding of European politics again ;)
Again, the point is entirely correct regardless of how you choose to smear it. Industry closing down leads to unemployment and reduced spending. Capitalist economy traditionally goes into a crisis of overproduction when that happens. No reason to expect anything different to happen this time around.
I am against the war in Ukraine and hope it will end as soon as possible. But even without the war in Ukraine this problem of unsustainable and outdated business models would have come up sooner or later and I am glad that it is highly unlikely that cheap gas imports will resume if/when the war in Ukraine ends.
You’re right, capitalist economic model is outdated and unsustainable. These problems have been building for many decades, and your political class deferred addressing them into the future by playing games like doing QE. The pandemic and the economic war are acting as a catalyst that’s forcing all the accumulated contradictions to the surface. Hand waving over the current problems by saying that it’s all for the greater good in the future is not useful for dealing with the crisis.
“My” political class? Now you are doing the ad-hominem and it is quite ridiculous as you are the one claiming the lack of alternatives to the status quo. Oh and what is it? A “crisis of over-production” and a “break down of industry due to lack of cheap energy inputs” can not be true the same time, even in outdated Marxist economic models.
I meant the political class of your country. And of course these things can be true at the same time. Once again, companies are global and they already do plenty of manufacturing outside of Europe right now. The collapse of the consumer market in Europe is hurting these companies. Rising energy prices in Europe are precisely what’s driving this. Also, adorable that you think Marxist economic models are outdated. Presumably, you think that producing things like food, energy, housing, infrastructure and other things that people need are outmoded concepts. 😂
So please explain where the over-production is when there are less producers and less demand (due to rising prices). Marx, with his 19th century economic models would have done a better job explaining that then you do.
Producing “things like food, energy, housing, infrastructure” in a global economy requires a slightly better understanding of the economic circumstances than the right-wing talking points that you repeat here without thinking about them yourself even for 5 minutes it seems.
So please explain where the over-production is when there are less producers and less demand (due to rising prices). Marx, with his 19th century economic models would have done a better job explaining that then you do.
I’m not sure what you’re struggling with here specifically. Europe is the primary market for European companies regardless of where they do production. As the economy crashes, people have to allocate larger portions of their income towards necessities. This means they have less discretionary spending. This leads to companies losing revenue because they can’t sell all the goods they’re producing. So, companies end up leaving European market and anybody working for these companies loses their jobs.
Meanwhile, goods that people need end up needing to be imported from other countries, and with European currency falling that means cost of imports is going up.
I hope that helps clear things up for you there.
Producing “things like food, energy, housing, infrastructure” in a global economy requires a slightly better understanding of the economic circumstances than the right-wing talking points that you repeat here without thinking about them yourself even for 5 minutes it seems.
So far you haven’t addressed any of the point I’ve made here and simply repeat the mantra that these are right-wing talking points. It’s as if you don’t actually have any answers to these problems. Europe is going into a recession and this is already making life very difficult for people. This will only get worse going forward. If it’s only the right that’s discussing these issues openly then Europe will slide back into fascism.
That is not what Marxists mean with “crisis of over-production”. Did you ever read Marxist economic theory?
And you are also trying to change the subject now (as usual when you are losing an argument). Yes there is a global economic down-turn and Europe is also effected by that, as are many other regions. Various factors play a role in that, the global pandemic (and counter-measures especially in China), tightening of monetary over-supply & and inflationary pressures, economic sanctions against China and Russia, etc… lack of Russian gas supplies to central Europe also play a role in that, but a relatively minor one.
But I am repeating my argument here, which you just refuse to address while continuing with right-wing fear-mongering of rising energy prices spelling the doom of all European industry, which is laughably untrue and just done to fish for votes of people in denial of the larger economic issues at play.
That is not what Marxists mean with “crisis of over-production”. Did you ever read Marxist economic theory?
Ideas have to be adapted to their current circumstances instead of applied dogmatically. I understand why this concept is hard for an anarchist to understand though. Crisis of overproduction fundamentally means that companies are producing more commodities than the market can absorb. This is clearly starting to be the case for European companies.
And you are also trying to change the subject now (as usual when you are losing an argument). Yes there is a global economic down-turn and Europe is also effected by that, as are many other regions. Various factors play a role in that, the global pandemic (and counter-measures especially in China), tightening of monetary over-supply & and inflationary pressures, economic sanctions against China and Russia, etc… lack of Russian gas supplies to central Europe also play a role in that, but a relatively minor one.
Nowhere am I changing the subject, which is that high energy prices are causing deindustrialization of Europe and that’s feeding into the economic crisis that Europe is experiencing. The fact that energy prices have jumped by an order of magnitude is not a minor factor, and I know that even you can’t be ignorant enough to think that.
But I am repeating my argument here, which you just refuse to address while continuing with right-wing fear-mongering of rising energy prices spelling the doom of all European industry, which is laughably untrue and just done to fish for votes of people in denial of the larger economic issues at play.
You haven’t actually made any argument here. You just said that there are other factors in play, which nobody debates. What’s laughably untrue is you claiming that European industry isn’t shutting down in face of energy costs. Critical things like steel mills and phenomenal 70% of fertilizer production has halted as a result. You’re either blatantly lying or have no clue how European economy works. It’s often hard to tell which it is when talking to you.
As a European living in Europe I probably have a slightly better understanding of European politics and economic issues than a Canadian apparently getting their main source of European news from right-wing tabloids.
Prices spiking for fertilizers etc. were mainly a result of speculative bubbles (most notably in the UK, which relies on their own natural gas sources in Scottland and does AFAIK not import any gas from Russia) and continental Europe has long had a crisis of agricultural over-production with cheap fertilizers destroying the environment. (And on a side note: the current agricultural issues are not due to lack of fertilizer, but rather extreme climate change induced drough in large parts of Europe).
And old European steel mills (mostly running on coal btw.) had long issues with competition from cheaper / energy subsidizing producers like China, this is nothing new and the rising energy prices just accelerate a long overdue market adjustment. With falling population and demand for products containing steel (like large cars) this is also not really an issue as the little steel that is still needed can be easily imported.
There are some sectors like the chemical industry that do have a high dependency on natural gas, but they are not such a significant part of the EU economy and will in the medium term benefit from an accelerated transition to bio-technological processes over 19th century energy intensive ones that were artificially kept alive due to cheap energy imports.
As a European living in Europe I probably have a slightly better understanding of European politics and economic issues
You wouldnt stand for this bullshit logic if the subject were Canada. If that’s the length you want to go to prove energy doesn’t matter for industry then maybe such sophistry is all you have.
Gotcha, there is no energy crisis in Europe and magical solutions will provide all the energy that’s needed going forward. Thanks for educating me on this complex subject.
Again, you blatantly misrepresent what’s happening which is that EU countries are now realizing that US is creating subsidies which makes it hard for European industries to compete. Both France and Germany are scrambling to come up with some kind of a response.
The amount of dishonesty it takes to claim that the stop of cheap energy from Russia i a minor factor is frankly astronomical. Meanwhile, the whole global economic downturn is largely rooted in the economic war between the west and Russia.
I’m assuming that you’re calling industry and manufacturing outdated business models here. The entire fuss is about the fact that lack of cheap energy means that costs of production in Europe are far higher than places like China or even US. Since we live in a global economy, European companies are directly competing against companies in other countries that have access to cheap energy. I hope that clears things up for you.
Again, the point is entirely correct regardless of how you choose to smear it. Industry closing down leads to unemployment and reduced spending. Capitalist economy traditionally goes into a crisis of overproduction when that happens. No reason to expect anything different to happen this time around.
You’re right, capitalist economic model is outdated and unsustainable. These problems have been building for many decades, and your political class deferred addressing them into the future by playing games like doing QE. The pandemic and the economic war are acting as a catalyst that’s forcing all the accumulated contradictions to the surface. Hand waving over the current problems by saying that it’s all for the greater good in the future is not useful for dealing with the crisis.
“My” political class? Now you are doing the ad-hominem and it is quite ridiculous as you are the one claiming the lack of alternatives to the status quo. Oh and what is it? A “crisis of over-production” and a “break down of industry due to lack of cheap energy inputs” can not be true the same time, even in outdated Marxist economic models.
I meant the political class of your country. And of course these things can be true at the same time. Once again, companies are global and they already do plenty of manufacturing outside of Europe right now. The collapse of the consumer market in Europe is hurting these companies. Rising energy prices in Europe are precisely what’s driving this. Also, adorable that you think Marxist economic models are outdated. Presumably, you think that producing things like food, energy, housing, infrastructure and other things that people need are outmoded concepts. 😂
So please explain where the over-production is when there are less producers and less demand (due to rising prices). Marx, with his 19th century economic models would have done a better job explaining that then you do.
Producing “things like food, energy, housing, infrastructure” in a global economy requires a slightly better understanding of the economic circumstances than the right-wing talking points that you repeat here without thinking about them yourself even for 5 minutes it seems.
I’m not sure what you’re struggling with here specifically. Europe is the primary market for European companies regardless of where they do production. As the economy crashes, people have to allocate larger portions of their income towards necessities. This means they have less discretionary spending. This leads to companies losing revenue because they can’t sell all the goods they’re producing. So, companies end up leaving European market and anybody working for these companies loses their jobs.
Meanwhile, goods that people need end up needing to be imported from other countries, and with European currency falling that means cost of imports is going up.
I hope that helps clear things up for you there.
So far you haven’t addressed any of the point I’ve made here and simply repeat the mantra that these are right-wing talking points. It’s as if you don’t actually have any answers to these problems. Europe is going into a recession and this is already making life very difficult for people. This will only get worse going forward. If it’s only the right that’s discussing these issues openly then Europe will slide back into fascism.
That is not what Marxists mean with “crisis of over-production”. Did you ever read Marxist economic theory?
And you are also trying to change the subject now (as usual when you are losing an argument). Yes there is a global economic down-turn and Europe is also effected by that, as are many other regions. Various factors play a role in that, the global pandemic (and counter-measures especially in China), tightening of monetary over-supply & and inflationary pressures, economic sanctions against China and Russia, etc… lack of Russian gas supplies to central Europe also play a role in that, but a relatively minor one.
But I am repeating my argument here, which you just refuse to address while continuing with right-wing fear-mongering of rising energy prices spelling the doom of all European industry, which is laughably untrue and just done to fish for votes of people in denial of the larger economic issues at play.
Ideas have to be adapted to their current circumstances instead of applied dogmatically. I understand why this concept is hard for an anarchist to understand though. Crisis of overproduction fundamentally means that companies are producing more commodities than the market can absorb. This is clearly starting to be the case for European companies.
Nowhere am I changing the subject, which is that high energy prices are causing deindustrialization of Europe and that’s feeding into the economic crisis that Europe is experiencing. The fact that energy prices have jumped by an order of magnitude is not a minor factor, and I know that even you can’t be ignorant enough to think that.
You haven’t actually made any argument here. You just said that there are other factors in play, which nobody debates. What’s laughably untrue is you claiming that European industry isn’t shutting down in face of energy costs. Critical things like steel mills and phenomenal 70% of fertilizer production has halted as a result. You’re either blatantly lying or have no clue how European economy works. It’s often hard to tell which it is when talking to you.
As a European living in Europe I probably have a slightly better understanding of European politics and economic issues than a Canadian apparently getting their main source of European news from right-wing tabloids.
Prices spiking for fertilizers etc. were mainly a result of speculative bubbles (most notably in the UK, which relies on their own natural gas sources in Scottland and does AFAIK not import any gas from Russia) and continental Europe has long had a crisis of agricultural over-production with cheap fertilizers destroying the environment. (And on a side note: the current agricultural issues are not due to lack of fertilizer, but rather extreme climate change induced drough in large parts of Europe).
And old European steel mills (mostly running on coal btw.) had long issues with competition from cheaper / energy subsidizing producers like China, this is nothing new and the rising energy prices just accelerate a long overdue market adjustment. With falling population and demand for products containing steel (like large cars) this is also not really an issue as the little steel that is still needed can be easily imported.
There are some sectors like the chemical industry that do have a high dependency on natural gas, but they are not such a significant part of the EU economy and will in the medium term benefit from an accelerated transition to bio-technological processes over 19th century energy intensive ones that were artificially kept alive due to cheap energy imports.
You wouldnt stand for this bullshit logic if the subject were Canada. If that’s the length you want to go to prove energy doesn’t matter for industry then maybe such sophistry is all you have.
Gotcha, there is no energy crisis in Europe and magical solutions will provide all the energy that’s needed going forward. Thanks for educating me on this complex subject.