My attempt to get money out of the wall in Netherlands:

card 1: foreign, visa debit, funded and in good standing, ATM withdrawal limit by the issuing bank: ~€500, worked in the past on Geldmaat, Euronet, GWK, etc.
card 2: foreign, visa credit, no balance and in good standing, cash advance limit: ~€4k

city A:

  • ATM refused card 1. Error msg falsely blamed the card. (Likely Geldmaat or Euronet ATM but did not make notes)
  • ATM refused card 1. Error msg falsely blamed the card. (Likely Geldmaat or Euronet ATM but did not make notes)
  • ATM (Geldmaat) accepted card 1. fee: €4.00. Paid out.
  • ATM (Euronet) accepted card 1. fee: €3.95. Paid out.

city B:

  • ATM (Geldmaat) refused card 1 instantly before even asking for PIN. Error msg falsely blamed the card.
  • ATM (Geldmaat) refused card 1 instantly before even asking for PIN. Error msg falsely blamed the card.
  • ATM (Geldmaat) refused card 1 instantly before even asking for PIN. Error msg falsely blamed the card.
  • ATM (GWK) machine boarded up and permanently closed. This was the last non-Geldmaat ATM in the city. Spoke to bankers at 3 banks. Geldmaat totally monopolises this city. Not a single indepedent ATM and not a single alternative ATM network available. If the Geldmaat rejects you, you’re fucked and cannot get cash out of the wall in this city. Bankers of banks who are a part of the Geldmaat consortium are helpless. They have no way of diagnosing a broken ATM transaction.

city C:

  • ATM (Euronet) refused card 1 after entering PIN. Error msg falsely blamed the card.
  • ATM (Euronet) refused card 1 after entering PIN. Error msg falsely blamed the card.
  • ATM (GWK) machine permanently shutdown.
  • ATM (GWK) machine running but card insertion broken.
  • ATM (GWK) accepted card 1. fee: €4.00. Paid out.
  • ATM (independant) refused request for €1k, falsely claimed card 2 issuing bank refused transaction.
  • ATM (GWK) refused request for €1k, falsely claimed card 2 issuing bank refused transaction.
  • ATM (GWK) accepted card 1. UI accepted all input, then simply neglected to dispense cash. No error msg.
  • ATM (GWK) accepted card 1. fee: €4.00. Paid out.

false errors

The obvious pattern is that the ATM always blames the card or issuing bank; never says the refusal is due to its own faults or limitations. After this shit show of card refusals I spoke to both banks. Both banks confirmed what I already knew: that the accounts are in good standing. One bank did not even see any failed ATM attempts, which means the refusal was wholly on the part of the ATM. Then that bank did a deeper check and said that the upstream payment network shows failed attempts. Which means that the card was read just fine. The ATM operator refused the cash on its side and apparently the machines are coded to knowingly and willfully print false messages.

no transparency - secretly different treatment for foreign cards

My other bank said some of the refusals were “apparently¹” due to exceeding regional limits of the ATM (not the bank’s own limits). I read somewhere that domestic EU cards can withdraw €2000 from ATMs but the same ATMs tend to impose a smaller limit of like €500 on foreign cards. These limits change with each article or person I talk to. No transparency. Obviously when ATM fees are flat it makes sense to pull out a high amount to reduce relative overhead. Being forced into small transactions increases the net fees. And since the limits are concealed, making many attempts at different amounts risks getting the account locked due to a shitty AI algo deciding multiple failed attempts resembles fraud (yes, this happened to me before).

¹ Indeed the bank could see the refusal but the bank could only speculate about why it was refused. And the bank gave some questionable conjecture, saying the daily limit on foreign cards is €400 with a transaction limit of €2000. That can only make sense if the 400 is ATM-specific and the 2k is non-ATM txns. In any case I have no trust in that info (despite coming from the bank).

anti-competition

I think the problem largely boils down to the elimination of ATM competition in Netherlands. The banks have all removed their own machines and joined a single monolithic consortium. So the yellow “Geldmaat” gets a monopoly in some cities and a near duopoly in other cities. Without competition the incentive to serve people well (with dignity, respect, and transparency) is diminishing. The biggest tourist region (Amsterdam) has the widest range of choices in NL:

  • Geldmaat (consortium of Ing, ABN AMRO, Rabobank, and SNS)
  • Euronet (no idea if any banks are involved)
  • GWK (these ATMs are dropping like flies & getting boarded up in many cities)
  • independent (hard to find, no directory)

I would hope independent ATMs would be an escape from this shit show, but they are actually coming under fire now due to claims that money launderers are filling them with dirty money. So the situation will worsen.

cash back on purchases dicey

It seems like the only possible balance against the anti-competitive ATMs is to get cash back on a purchase. IIUC, this avoids fees. I did a quick check:

  • Albert Heijn: will only allow up to €20 in cash back
  • SPAR: rumored to allow up to €150 in cash back but when I tried to test this the cashier said the register had no cash. So it’s still a game of chance.
  • Smullers: heard speculation that they give cash back but no idea on limits.

The problem with cash back will always be that you are naturally limited to what is in the register. But it would be useful to at least know what the artificial limits of different shops are.

Is there any refuge from this nannying?

(update: one thing that would help is improved OpenStreetMap info)

    • activistPnkOPNederlands
      2·
      1 month ago

      The Geldmaat website states that debit cards need to be Maestro or Mastercard and that credit cards can be Mastercard and Visa. I’m surprised the Visa debit card worked at all in a Geldmaat, because as far as I can tell it shouldn’t.

      One of the (otherwise helpless) bankers I spoke to said Visa is probably not accepted by Geldmaat. I thought the banker had to be wrong but maybe they meant to say visa debit does not work. Yet I have a receipt from a functional Geldmaat machine which says “visa debit” in a field named “app. label”. Then at the bottom of the receipt it (incorrectly) says “credit card account … credit limit …” which actually reflects the card balance.

      Some point of sale terminals are said to only work with visa credit or visa debit, but then I’ve had banks tell me their cards act like what the machine wants it to be. I’m fuzzy on the details. There are situations where you have to choose “credit” or “debit” on the terminal, and the bank says I can choose credit even if it’s debit, and vice versa. So it’s hard to pin down what’s going on. I don’t even get why the distinction between the two exists at the network API level. It’s not the business of the merchant or the ATM to know those details.

      I can only imagine that perhaps it’s there for casino situations. A credit card holder once went to LasVegas with a credit card from a region where gambling is illegal. One of the laws was that it’s illegal to collect on a gambling debt. So he took a cash advance on his credit card inside a casino, lost it all, then returned home and told the bank it’s a gambling debt, get lost. My understanding of the story is that he got off the hook for the debt on that basis. But I wonder if that’s why this distinction exists on the card networks.

      Another theory is that credit cards have more buyer’s protections and higher fees to the merchant and so some merchants don’t like that and want to insist on debit cards. But the ATM seems like the reverse of that.

      Anyway, maybe not all Geldmaat machines are the same.

      I appreciate your insight. Perhaps some of the refusals is related to visa debit incompatibility.

      Withdrawing money from Dutch banks is effectively free (that’s what the banks charge you for) so a commercial party putting down ATMs in public can’t make money from the vast majority of potential customers.

      Well free to the customer but the ATM likely still profits. My bank eats the atm fee but they have no deal to hide the fee from the customer. So I agree to the fee, see the fee on the receipt, and the fee appears on the bank statement followed by a credit back in the amount of the fee. EU accounts probably just hide the fee from the customer otherwise ATMs would not be sustainable.

      update

      This page says:

      You can make a cash withdrawal at every geldmaat ATM using your Maestro or Visa debit card and/or your MasterCard or Visa credit card.

      (emphasis mine)

  • Tar_Alcaran@sh.itjust.worksNederlands
    4·
    1 month ago

    Is there any refuge from this nannying?

    Yeah, there’s a super simple solution: get a Dutch bank card. That does require a BSN through RNI registration, but from your frequent dutch posts I’m assuming you either have one already or would benefit from one.

    Or get a German one, I’ve never heard of problems from German friends. I also still have also never had an issue with my American Visa creditcard. Belgium also does mostly fine in the Netherlands.

    Your problem is probably much more related to your card than to the machine.