Please don’t put any hate comments against the developers of lemmy or against the person who posted this.
I am also unhappy about what the main lemmy instance is doing.
What are your thoughts?
I’m sorry to see people somewhere on the Internet coming out against Lemmy. First of all, let me say that I sympathize with the China issue. I’m a Muslim and I have been concerned about the Uyghurs for a very long time. This is not some bandwagon that I am jumping on, and I have ties to the region as well. I moderate the Uyghur sub on Reddit, created #uyghur on matrix.org, and on lemmy.ml I have registered communities like c/uyghur and c/xinjiang. I did that mainly to promote the welfare of Uyghurs and guard against whitewashing of the situation in Xinjiang. Obviously I am pro-Uyghur, and I feel that the admins of lemmy.ml have been gracious enough to respect me as a user and a mod. I have also not seen them engage in censorship of opposing viewpoints on this issue, and we have at least once that I can remember disagreed on China’s Uyghur policy here on the site. This did not result in any problem.
Please don’t cancel Lemmy, because the software is amazing and the creators really are nice. I don’t have to agree with them on politics in China. As long as they’re not crazy about it, the situation is manageable. So far they’ve always been fair.
Even suppose that one day they implement a policy on lemmy.ml that says they won’t allow anyone to post pro-Uyghur things. So what? It’s their Lemmy instance, they can decide what’s on it. I can go start my own instance. I really don’t think lemmy.ml has any obligation to do what the community wants. They’ve already done enough by creating the software and making it FOSS.
Besides, you know how many people posted pro-Uyghur content on c/uyghur since I created it? None. So if you’re concerned about how the issue is being represented on this site, maybe you could come post something sometime, or argue in the comments.
Anyway, at present I’m not recommending any other Reddit alternative and probably won’t.
I believe it is a mistake selecting that particular instance for those communities.
The risk isn’t just that they shut it down, there’s a much worse thing that could happen: pinpoint elision (or even editing) of reporting on the genocide.
This kind of drama happens on Mastodon all the time, and within a few days everyone forgets about it. Apparently thats just how the platform works, so no need to get worried.
There is a difference between people advocating for human rights abuses and people saying that some actor does in fact not engage in human rights abuses. The difference is stark and even there, if the actor would in fact in engage in human right abuses.
An open society must tolerate the later. I.e. we must tolerate that people dispute that human right abuses occur or occurred. This is because you cannot judge someone purely due to getting the facts wrong or not knowing them.
If we wouldn’t allow this, we would de-facto argue for a totalitarian state, since we wouldn’t allow people disputing facts (which can be proven or disproven). We would have to nominate some entity that judges what is fact and what isn’t, which is the opposite to gathering evidence and engaging in an open, society wide discussion.
To be clear: Allowing discussions around whether abuses occur is notably different to letting people get away with advocating for abuses. The latter is what needs strong responses. The former is what requires engagement.
I don’t see anything on lemmy or in the mastodon thread that shows that human rights abuses are advocated for. What I do see is that there are some fractions that show sympathies to China which you would otherwise only see for the USA. I think its useful to compare these sympathies because they seem to express themselves in similar ways.
With all that said, I think the opinion expressed in the mastodon thread is not particularly useful. It, in many ways, minimises real human rights abuses that occur world wide, day to day, in China, USA, and many other countries in East and West.
Let’s call out the abuses, let’s discuss and present the evidence for them, let’s not alienate people and create polarity that looks like us-vs-them.
Very well said. Also, if these people disagree with the rules on lemmy.ml, they could create their own instance, with their own rules. Thats the whole point of federation.
Us: “China isn’t committing the atrocities the West accuses them of and here’s evidence.”
Anti-China people: “OMG you actively advocate for China’s atrocities and want them to keep happening!”
We politely asked this fedi account to take this discussion here, but they obstinately refused. They’ve equated even any discussion questioning the Zenz / Byler / ASPI narrative as genocide denial.
Block 'em and move on I say. It’s clear there’s no reasoning with them and there isn’t much we can do to stop them from spewing propaganda at us. In fact, engaging them will probably only exacerbate things.
There is a difference between people advocating for human rights abuses and people saying that some actor does in fact not engage in human rights abuses.
The main difference is, that one practice gaslighting as a means to justify such acts.
They will claim “it was just joking”, or explain how in fact the abuse is something good, hence they aren’t for human right violation because they are for something that they just defined as something good.I haven’t seen this. What I’ve seen is that people say that the abuses do not occur.
FediTips and the commenters in that thread make some good points. The fact that this Lemmy instance federates with Lemmygrad (which, if you look at the front page, is full of denialism about the Uyghur genocide) is an atrocity.
And yes, https://lemmy.ml/modlog does indeed have some questionable entries, such as:
- Removed Community conservatives reason: No conservative communities
- Removed Community Libertarian, in the pursuit of a free society reason: No conservative communities allowed
- Removed Community Conservatism reason: No conservative subs allowed
I created the Conservatism community, not knowing that Lemmy (lemmy.ml) became a leftist instance. (Lemmy was not explicitly leftist when I made my account in July 2020. Look at this archive of the front page from November 2020, which does not include the word leftist in the sidebar.) Fine, whatever. But, removing the Libertarian community with the rationale “No conservative communities allowed”? I don’t understand that. That’s not even politically accurate.
Wikipedia is not a source bruh. In the introductory paragraph on the uyghur genocide article they say that thousands of mosques have been destroyed… But don’t mention they have been rebuilt to accommodate more people or because they weren’t up to code. There are more mosques in Xinjiang alone in 2021 than there are in all of Europe lol.
Wikipedia has a clear agenda and this is clear from looking at their board of directors and demographics. They are not a source and neither are their sources - - they are carefully curated to offer a specific analysis.
Even US state department denies the Uyghur genocide. Give it a rest already.
You are aware that this is just about semantics? It’s not about if those crimes against humanity that some call genocide are happening, it is if those crimes against humanity should be called genocide or differently. Stop gaslighing.
“The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide,…”
Some more quote from the article:
“Secretary Blinken and I have made clear that genocide has been committed against the Uyghurs in Xinjiang,”
“I have determined that the People’s Republic of China is committing genocide and crimes against humanity in Xinjiang, China, targeting Uyghur Muslims and members of other ethnic and religious minority groups,”
“For example, the torture, rape and sexual violence committed against Uyghurs likely constitute genocide ‘by causing serious bodily and mental harm’—the second type of genocide recognized by the Convention,
“More than 1 million Uighurs have been detained in reeducation camps, and many have reportedly been subjected to forced labor and sterilization. China has committed numerous crimes listed in the convention as acts of genocide, including the prevention of births and infliction of bodily or mental harm on members of a group and the compulsory separation of children from their communities, according to human rights groups.”
What I’m aware of is that there is no credible evidence of any sort of genocide happening in Xinjiang. The millions of Uyghurs being supposedly imprisoned story is based on two highly dubious “studies.”. CHRD states that it interviewed dozens of ethnic Uyghurs in the course of its study, but their enormous estimate was ultimately based on interviews with exactly eight Uyghur individuals. Based on this absurdly small sample of research subjects in an area whose total population is 20 million, CHRD “extrapolated estimates” that “at least 10% of villagers […] are being detained in re-education detention camps, and 20% are being forced to attend day/evening re-education camps in the villages or townships, totaling 30% in both types of camps.” Furthermore, it doesn’t even make sense from logistics perspective. You’d need a detention city the size of San Francisco to detain one million Uighurs.
Practically all the stories we see about China trace back to Adrian Zenz is a far right fundamentalist nutcase and not a reliable source for any sort of information. The fact that he’s the primary source for practically every article in western media demonstrates precisely what I’m talking about when I say that coverage is divorced from reality.
Zenz is a born-again Christian who lectures at the European School of Culture and Theology. This anodyne-sounding campus is actually the German base of Columbia International University, a US-based evangelical Christian seminary which considers the “Bible to be the ultimate foundation and the final truth in every aspect of our lives,” and whose mission is to “educate people from a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ.”
Zenz’s work on China is inspired by this biblical worldview, as he recently explained in an interview with the Wall Street Journal. “I feel very clearly led by God to do this,” he said. “I can put it that way. I’m not afraid to say that. With Xinjiang, things really changed. It became like a mission, or a ministry.”.
Along with his “mission” against China, heavenly guidance has apparently prompted Zenz to denounce homosexuality, gender equality, and the banning of physical punishment against children as threats to Christianity.
Zenz outlined these views in a book he co-authored in 2012, titled Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation. In the tome, Zenz discussed the return of Jesus Christ, the coming wrath of God, and the rise of the Antichrist.
The fact that this nutcase is being paraded as a credible researcher on the subject is absolutely surreal, and it’s clear that the methodology of his “research” doesn’t pass any kind of muster when examined closely.
It’s also worth noting that there is a political angle around the narrative around Xinjiang. For example, here’s George Bush’s chief of staff openly saying that US wants to destabilize the region, and NED recently admitting to funding Uyghur separatism for the past 16 years on their own official Twitter page. An ex-CIA operative details US operations radicalizing and training terrorists in the region in this book. Here’s an excerpt:
Throughout the 1990s, hundreds of Uyghurs were transported to Afghanistan by the CIA for training in guerilla warfare by the mujahideen. When they returned to Xinjiang, they formed the East Turkistan Islamic Movement and came under Catli’s expert direction. Graham Fuller, CIA superspy, offered this explanation for radicalizing the Chinese Muslims:
The policy of guiding the evolution of Islam and of helping them [Muslims] against our adversaries worked marvelously well in Afghanistan and against the Red Army. The doctrines can still be used to destabilize what remains of Russian power, and especially to counter Chinese influence in Central Asia.
Furthermore, a recent joint research report on Xinjiang from multiple academic institutions in Italy states that U.S. is exploiting this issue seeking geopolitical benefits in the name of human rights.
Anybody who still peddles Xinjiang genocide narrative at this point is either utterly ignorant or is willfully spreading misinformation.
What I’m aware of is that there is no credible evidence of any sort of genocide happening in Xinjiang.
Why is it always the same rhetorical methods you (are you ML?) people use?
Telling someone they are wrong, and they just need to read a bit more into it. Then they read a bit more into it, from the source you linked and notice that your entire argument is nothing but manipulative but they anyway use the arguments from the very source you linked as a means to show you how pointless your comment was…and then, like nearly always, people like you will then argue: no, no, all false: read this very long thread.
I did read some threads on that subject from some MLs already. They all had one thing in common:
forced labor is actually something good in this case. But look this is an ideological debate. You think it’s good, I think it’s bad. There’s no point debating that I should change my value system.
You haven’t addressed a single point that I made, and now you’ve shifted from talking about genocide to forced labor which nobody here is defending. You’re clearly not interested in having a good faith discussion here.
Have a good day.
You haven’t addressed a single point that I made
I did. I addressed your original point. Then you wanted to talk about something else and I said, no, I’m not going to follow you into this rabbit hole, let’s first stick to the original point. If anytime someone makes an argument that makes your argument become logical inconsistent, you start to distract with something else, no point following you into the rabbit hole. Because all you want is to win, but I don’t gonna join your rules.
here just so you don’t miss it out, here’s how I respond to your original point: https://lemmy.ml/post/78808/comment/74761
No, you literally didn’t address any of my points. I explained that the source for your claims is not credible. I provided the context of what’s terrorism in Xinjiang and US involvement. I’ve also provided an independent report from Italy stating that US claims are politically motivated. You addressed none of that, and then shifted your argument. You are a troll.
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xD. I get the Joke @TheAnonymouseJoker. Hope you wont get to much downovtes by those not understanding the actual joke. xD Because this might not be obvious to others reading here I give a short explanation:
It’s a common practice by tankies and of those who come at their defense, to make some claim/question about “shit lib” or CIA, and it doesn’t matter if it fits the current argument or not. Usually some conspiracy follow after that.
The joke here is to make a pun out of that behavior, by injecting that “CIA” claim at a moment it just doesn’t servers well.
And here’s why: Someone tried to gaslight an political opponent by linking to an article that they claim to be about “Even US state department denies the Uyghur genocide”. So all I did is to quote some parts of the text, as a means to break the gaslighting spell. And now, the source that was original used to prove that that genocide did not happen, if used by a non-tankie it is CIA propaganda shit libs believe in. And because this art of debate is so absurd, it creates some laughter for some. On the other hand it is also very anoying, because you can’t have any serious logical consistent debate with anyone who argues like that.
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Everyone should get a platform to spread their views/propaganda :)
Apart from Nazis.
No, even they should, in the process you isolate them.
This has been tried before in different ways; infowars, parler, even giving them r/thedonald (as some believed it kept them off other reddits) … It has only led to fascists finding a platform to start working their poison and spread it outside.
In fact isolating only worked when moderators finally did something and deplatformed them, I.e. Banned these communities. After Alex Jones was taken off youtube, infowars died. Spencer was punched so much he stopped leaving the house (and so stopped propagandising). Milo was canceled everywhere he went (literally), but especially on Twitter, and last I heard he filed for bankruptcy.
The best way to isolate them is to fragment their communities so much that any organisation is impossible. And of course prevent them from creating such communities. If you let them have their spaces, they will find them, they will go on there (and they’re very good at using the edgy aspect to lure in new recruits), and then you end up with another terrorist attack. They will organise on there and that’s what you want to prevent.
You know you can apply that to any antifa member who wants disobey laws by resorting to violent means.
i’ll take “Whataboutism” for 500, Alex.
Hmmm yes, you do isolate them. But when they are isolated they are also then just surrounded by other people who think the same way as them, and that still is a problem. i mean it’s good if they’re kept to niche platforms like xchan or Ruqqus or thedonald.win or whatever, as they have less of an layman audience to manipulate there too - compared with sites like Twitter or Reddit.
The developers of lemmy are self-admidded tankies, what else to expect?
Tankies and the Left-Unity Scam https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ziq-tankies-and-the-left-unity-scam
huh, why the downvotes? Because I used the term tankies, but you prefer to be called Marxist-Leninist? When contemporary anti-authoritarians use the term tankie, they usually refer to contemporary Marxist-Leninist. Hope that explanation helps. So when I say you are Marxist-Leninst, I mean you are tankie.
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Would you prefer we refer to you as dronie or anarkiddie?
you’re aware that dev of lemmy use the term tankie as a self description too?
Same logic as saying that Black people use the n word colloquially and therefore it’s fine to use it as a slur.
Genuinely curious: Is Tankie a slur? I’ve seen more communists use it than noncommunists. Though that might simply reveal who I like to hang out with more.
Tankie is a pejorative term that originates with CPGB to denounce the use of tanks by the Soviet during the Hungarian Revolution of 1956. Recently it’s been picked up by Anarchists and liberals as a slur against people who support existing socialist states like China or Cuba. Communists tend to use it ironically nowadays because the term pretty much lost all meaning at this point.
I wouldn’t understand what dronie is so that term might not well serve the purpose if used to address me. If you address me as anarkiddie, it be enough for a tiny giggle, but then I’ll be remembered how that term is actually discrimination against children. It helps to reproduce adultism over and over again.
Dronie refers to the fact that anarchist positions are always aligned with US foreign policy. It’s exact same rationale as the tankie slur you love so much. Meanwhile, anarkiddie refers to the fact that full grown adults hold infantile views of the world.
Dronie refers to the fact that anarchist positions are always aligned with US foreign policy.
hmm, ok. This wouldn’t fit me. I’m opposing US foreign policy in most parts, not all I must admit. I’m for: Dismantle the US empire. It’s just a phrase, but I mean it like that.
You’re literally peddling US state propaganda in this thread.
That “essay” reads like a terminally online rant lol, sorry. I was made aware of it some time ago and we had a good laugh about it, because it feels like it was written by an angsty pre-teen, but this is a full-grown adult chasing strawmen in his head and the best examples he can find to illustrate his arguments is online drama and shitposting. I did have a good laugh when he said Raddle was an illegalist space, because I had to look into it afterwards and even other anarchists find this ideology questionable (I still don’t really understand how clearly self-motivated gangsters were later found to be anarchists either, because I couldn’t find these original illegalists calling themselves anarchists).
Edit: i was actually thinking of https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ziq-eradicate-left-unity, I got confused by the names being similar. Keeping this comment up because ziq is too funny not to share lol
Since you’re clearly ideologically opposed to Marxist-Leninist views, why are you here?
lemmy.ml is also for anarchists, right?
Sure, I’m just wondering why the particular person is here since they seem to be ideologically opposed to the fact that Lemmy devs are MLs. All I see from them is personal attacks and bad faith arguments.
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I don’t care about what people’s views are as long as they’re respectful to views of others, and are willing to have discussions in good faith. My issue with @nikifa@lemmy.ml is that they make personal attacks, use slurs, and make bad faith arguments.
I can be ideologically opposed to anything, and still take the courage to engage with such individuals. I don’t want to live in cult, with anyone part of that just going to agree with me. I let my ideas be confronted by those who oppose me. They will either stand or be dismantled. Both will have a positive outcome for me, and that is learning. Either I stand corrected afterwards, or I will have learned more about your habit, thought patterns and communities. This is intel activity, done by an random anarcho[…]
You clearly don’t have the courage to engage with individuals in good faith or have any interest in educating yourself on the subjects that you choose to engage on. You also quite clearly not interested in learning, as you simply dismiss information that doesn’t fit with your preconceptions. All you do is throw around slurs and make personal attacks. What you’re doing is generally known as trolling.
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Completly agree. Also, this is a topic that needs years of research and diplomacy as it is inherently tainted by propaganda (from all sides). It is pointless (and petty) to act as if there is a way of telling right from wrong at this stage. People need to cool their jets befor crying and accusing others of malicious intent. Personally, I am as left as it gets and that is why I like lemmy/lemmygrad. It is just refreshing to see this in the current internet!
I must admit I don’t know the author to well, but usually when people claim this anti-authoritarian is as bad as this authoritarian in regards of ziq (the author), people refer to his anticiv position. Anticiv get usually misrepresented and miss understood. I can understand why, but that doesn’t make them as bad as the “tankie”.
If you need a read on anticiv theory, you might enjoy reading something from Abdullah Öcalan leader of the PKK, which has Marxist-Leninist tradition.
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I recommend you to read some other articles by this author
I did already, not my favorite author but I haven’t read anything that is comparable bad with ML
do a web-search on him admitting to faking multiple accounts as sockpuppets
I am aware of that. The author admitted their wrong doing, and because of his behavior stepped down as moderator, at least temporarily. I don’t know about the current status. To those he caused the most harm by his behavior, they made piece with it and remain in friendship afaik. If you need the backround story to all that, I can dick it out for you.
However some anticiv people are really just crypto eco-fascists
some primies are like that. I did read threads how ziq makes fun of their nonsense.
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After all they have been the dominant leftist group for a long time and thus attracted some questionable people as well…
You mean like Lenin? It’s not “some”, it’s the majority, and it’s their leaders.
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No one forces you to use lemmy.ml
if we were talking about lemmygrad, I would agree, but personally lemmy.ml is a place for me that I enjoy browsing and posting to. anyway I think it’s the best opportunity for anyone interested in making a centrist or apolitical instance and get the label of “flagship instance” on joinlemmy to help it grow and become as big as lemmy.ml, it will also make it easier for people who don’t like the politics of lemmy.ml to choose an instance knowing that it has no strong political affiliation.
but I agree the folks on lemmygrad can be a little bit … let’s say annoying.
also interesting that their only problem seems to be about the “genocide”.
Me personally, I’ve realized how much my perception of socialist countries has been warped by capitalist propaganda and I’m reluctant about believing anything that western media says about these countries.
I was in the same boat before I joined Lemmy and talked to actual socialists and communists. I was staunchly anticommunist and anti-China without even knowing all the facts.
There are lot of lies about communism but not every thing that comes anti-communist along is actually anti-communist.
It is most often directed at the authoritarian and totalitarian communists and gives a really bad image to any other communist, because unfortunate it often lumps it all together.
If someone doesn’t want to use this software because they disagree with the developers’ politics, it’s their loss. I wish them luck in finding ideologically pure projects in the future.
haters… Everywhere
So, don’t use lemmy as a software because there are some disagreeable things on one of the instances? Who gives a shit? This is the whole point of the fediverse. Defederate. Go to another instance. Mod. Block. Do whatever because that’s what the fediverse alows.
The logical inconsistency of supporting the fediverse but not supporting a method of accessing the fediverse because of content on the fediverse is very severe.
I’ve been struggling the whole day about how to respond to this.
My first reaction was disgust, as the thing going on with Uyghurs in China pretty much looks like a genocide, regardless of semantics. “If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it is a duck”.
When it comes to discussion about the subject, I however have to agree with @jazzfes@lemmy.ml.
To be clear: Allowing discussions around whether abuses occur is notably different to letting people get away with advocating for abuses. The latter is what needs strong responses. The former is what requires engagement.
No promotion of oppression or bigotry has in this case happened. I’d rather allow people have these discussions as long as they can behave like in a furnished space.
I’m fine with the developers’ political views, as the Lemmy software is more important.
Of course Lemmy has now a certain kind of PR problem as this FediTips fella is making big accusations and wanting people to stop using Lemmy altogether.
Let’s not fool ourselves, denying Uyghur abuse puts you in the same territory as holocaust deniers.
Would you deny white genocide? You should. The reasoned denial of a supposed genocide is not equivalent to the ideological denial (or fabrication) of the same. Holocaust denial is not the same as scepticism of the genocide which is supposed to be taking place in Xinjiang. To equate any genocide with the Holocaust is an ideological tool used to avoid analysis of the subject.
Then the United Nations are holocaust deniers. Fact is that no international court or UN organ has even investigated the alleged genocide. Innocent until proven guilty.
When has the UN denied holocaust?
The UN hasnt declared that a genocide is happening in Xinjiang. By your logic, that makes them equal to Holocaust deniers.
So they haven’t actually denied it?
Highly recommend reading this recent report from Italy regarding Xinjiang.
It’s ironic that the “OMG CHINA IS GENOCIDING” crowd accuses us of lying and ignoring evidence when we tend to be the only ones providing sources for our claims. It’s evident in this very thread.
It’s not a good look for admins to get involved in politics this directly, makes the whole place look like a hugbox
Yeah, okay, I’ll just say it: the admins can’t care less if a bunch of reactionaries don’t use this platform. None of us are getting ad revenue or any sort of money from more users, and we have no incentive to, nor want to, cater to a bunch of US propaganda spewing haters.
As for the devs being communists, yes. Dessalines and Nutomic are ML. I’m at least Marxist myself. We have not, and are not going to hide this fact to placate the haters and we honestly don’t care if that makes people leave or boycott this project.
They have problems with the word filter? The word filter keeps the bigoted reactionaries away, did they not notice that? If they would rather talk to bigots than to us, then they shouldn’t join us.
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